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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If a new referendum on Brexit was announced..

582 replies

bbcessex · 11/10/2017 07:51

Would you be up in arms about that?
Discussing last night.. I think given the margins in the last vote and the (being charitable) confusion and uncertainty over the Brexit plans, a new referendum would generally be accepted.

DH (remainer) thinks a re-vote is not constitutional & would cause uproar (amongst all).

Who is unreasonable ?

OP posts:
M4Dad · 13/10/2017 10:36

Springbreeze

I'm not interested in your "whataboutery"

Peregrina · 13/10/2017 10:36

I'm afraid it strikes me as a bit pointless to argue with someone who thinks that the referendum result isn't legally binding.

You are the one who is arguing, but you then get into the contradictory position of which bits of the Manifesto do you want to be binding? The Single Market bit has been ditched, as was the commitment to enfranchise overseas citizens.

What most of us are arguing now is the form of Brexit. There was absolutely nothing on the ballot paper to suggest options. The EEA option would suit quite a lot of both Remainers and Leavers IMO. The sticking point is the Freedom of Movement, but have we had a Referendum on whether we want Freedom of Movement? No.

We honestly don't know how many people voted Leave of the basis of wanting more money for the NHS? May/Hunt have not yet shown any convincing commitment to it. But why should we take that as a No?Why should they not be held to it? Because statements on red buses don't mean much when it comes down to it electorally.

BertrandRussell · 13/10/2017 10:36

Just in case anyone missed this extract from Parliamentary Briefing
This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions

Crackednips · 13/10/2017 10:36

The problem is that we do not have a historical tradition for referenda and the 'sovereignty' of those referenda - how much they bind parliament, if you like, is therefore unclear and open to question.

Our tradition is that we only have direct democracy during elections for seats in the HoC. Between those periods, parliament is sovereign. That's why I paraphrased RM.

does not make it true I thought we weren't supposed to claim anything is binary ?

makeourfuture · 13/10/2017 10:36

Whenever it is faced with questions on sovereignty or the constitution, then the electorate must be consulted in a referendum and the result of that referendum must be binding.

Again, maybe he is right that this should be so. It is not, however, constitutionally valid at this moment.

Moussemoose · 13/10/2017 10:39

Federal is a structural term. The EU by it's nature is federal - power devolved to nation states.

It is also governmental rather self evidently.

These two ideas coexist well in a number of countries.

So your specific point is...........?

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 13/10/2017 10:39

The question put to us was overwhelmingly agreed parliament

Yes or No

There was no mention of it being legally binding or another referendum to agree on the terms and no politician was pushing for this beforehand just a few who were against having a referendum in the first place

Labour are not going to push for another referendum and we know the conservatives won't as this was what was put to the public they can't possibly do that as we live in a democracy and Libdems can say what they like knowing they haven't got a chance of gaining power and it they didn't gain a huge amount of support in the last GE

It's done that's it there will not be another referendum for years there should be a cross party committee working for the best results we can gain with what we have been left with

Crackednips · 13/10/2017 10:42

Red busses again? Neither do claims of war with Russia, emergency punishment budgets, collapse of the economy etc..

personally I don't know of one person who actually believed the implication (not a lie) that £350 million could be given to the NHS. For me it was just noise in the general campaign. I did however believe the claims that an EU army was being proposed.

Anyway must back get to work..

BertrandRussell · 13/10/2017 10:43

"Whenever it is faced with questions on sovereignty or the constitution, then the electorate must be consulted in a referendum and the result of that referendum must be binding."

Anybody is fine to think that. And, if they wish, to vote for the candidate that will push for the change in the system that would produce that outcome.

Moussemoose · 13/10/2017 10:44

M4Dad

We only get to vote one person out - there are 28 people making the decisions. How is that democratic?

It is democratic because decisions are not made by one body. This is not the UK with only one powerful body. The EU has been constructed to have checks and balances. The EU Parliament, with an MEP you voted for, holds the executive to account.

Do not try to compare the EU to the UK it is much more democratic!

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 10:46

Let's change track here, *Moussee"

Do you think the EU could me *more" democractic or are you happy with the currently level of democracy within the Organisations?

Peregrina · 13/10/2017 10:46

My question was to a user who said there never should have been a referendum so I asked if they thought that, how would they have felt if the Conservative party decided on Brexit without a public vote as they felt the public shouldn't be trusted to vote.

I am arguing that this is in effect what Theresa May is doing. She has declared that we will leave the Single Market and Customs Union. She has stated that there will be no Referendum. She has not said - there are a range of options - which of these do you want? That's in accordance with being a Parliamentary democracy - where we elect MPs to weigh up the facts and make decisions on our behalf. Her problem is that without winning under the first past the post system, she lacks the mandate to do so.

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 10:48

The EU Parliament, with an MEP you voted for, holds the executive to account

I'm honestly sad that you've been hoodwinked enough to believe that you believe this is democracy.

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 10:50

Sorry, terrible English there.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2017 10:51

DH (remainer) thinks a re-vote is not constitutional

Whether you DH is a remainer or not is irrelevant. This is not a leave/remain debate, despite what so many posters here seem to think.

The question is whether a 2nd referendum is constitutional or not. Not whether Remain / Leave would win.

Another referendum probably would not be a 're-vote' anyway because it most likely would ask a fundamentally different question.

To say its 'not constitutional' shows your DH knows fuck all about law and constitutional matters. He also knows fuck all about democracy and democratic principles.

Democracy is an ongoing conversation where ideas and support for ideas is a constantly shifting thing.

The referendum was also hugely flawed for a huge number of reasons (involving both remain and leave sides), and it asked a question that was incredibly vague leaving it open to interpretation and the result open to abuse.

There are Leavers who feel betrayed and that what they voted for is not being delivered. Among them are people who were part of the official Vote Leave campaign.

Remember that key Brexiteers like Boris Johnson and Daniel Hannan, said that leaving the EU was not leaving the Single Market. They promised we could have our cake and eat it. They continued to do that after the referendum. Now that's beginning to unravel.

This is important, given that May's Brexit vision, is to leave the Single Market, the Customs Union and the ECJ.

That's not something that has been democratically approved by the British Public. In many ways the referendum result is becoming increasingly meaningless and not necessarily reflective of the opinion of the British Public.

The referendum result is NOT legally binding. So said the Supreme Court. This is part of the problem. That's why we have had legal challenges because the constitutional matters surrounding the referendum was not properly addressed when the Referendum Act was created.

The referendum result is technically politically binding. This is categorically different. Politics unlike law are not fixed. They are subject to changing much more frequently and easily.

I give you think fine twitter thread, which points out that political mandates are finite and do not last indefinitely.

Simon the Stylite‏*@Sime0nStylites*
1. Amidst the No Deal furore, I’m reminded of Eddie Mair’s very fine question to Amber Rudd.
2. “How long does the referendum remit last?” (A question which AR struggled to answer).
3. You can divide the question into 2 parts: (i) Brexit itself (ii) the shape of Brexit.
4. (i) is easier to answer. The govt has a mandate to leave the EU that until we do or it’s the “will of the people” that we don’t.
5. (Important point - the referendum was about leaving; it said nothing about rejoining.)
6. (ii) Is more difficult. Let’s be clear, there is little if any democratic mandate for the “shape” of Brexit.
7. Many people said many things during the ref campaign - Project Fear, SM yes/no, Switzerland, Sunlit Uplands, £350m for the NHS etc.
8. Argue what u will about what either side said, the question was Leave v Remain not Leave - How. The question said nothing about “shape”.
9. The closest we have to democratic validation of “shape” is Lanc Hse and then the subsequent GE.
10. If the GE had returned a Cons majority, then the govt could have asserted that it had a democratic mandate for its Brexit “shape’.
11. But it didn’t (although a weaker case can be made as a result of the alliance with the DUP).
12. But even if the govt did have a Lanc Hse mandate, what happens if that Brexit “shape” is unachievable?
13. Important to remember that Lanc Hse had 2 limbs - the 3 Red Lines AND a Deep/Frictionless trade arrangement.

If your DH thinks a 're-vote' is unconstitutional, then does he think the SNP's main political goal is unconstitutional?

As for causing uproar, it depends on a) what the question for a referendum was b) what the political atmosphere of the country was by that point.

Today sees the Times with a poll from YouGov with a significant change in responses to whether Brexit is right or wrong. It could be an outlier. It could be a flawed poll. We need more to see if a pattern is emerging. I would be surprised if it was wrong though for various reasons.

If this trend was to continue then the political atmosphere might be very different to it was in June 2016. And the outcome of a referendum asking a different question, might be highly desirable to STOP outrage.

Above all else, a referendum will only occur if it is politically acceptable and beneficial to have one.

Your DH is not very good at understanding political concepts. He probably has other strengths. This isn't one. You should explain why.

Part of the reason we are currently in such a mess in this country is because not enough people understand these concepts and have swallowed the bullshit of politicians trying to cover their arses by redefining why they don't have to listen to public opinion properly, whilst they pursue their own agendas.

In a democracy, those you elect are supposed to listen to opinions and changes in those opinions as representatives. You reserve the right to change your mind, when given additional information. MPs have the power to reflect this, and this is not undemocratic. Indeed, its the exact opposite.

BertrandRussell · 13/10/2017 10:52

"My question was to a user who said there never should have been a referendum so I asked if they thought that, how would they have felt if the Conservative party decided on Brexit without a public vote as they felt the public shouldn't be trusted to vote'

It's not a matter of not being trusted to vote. It's a matter of most people not knowing enough to vote in an informed way.

Peregrina · 13/10/2017 10:53

Red buses again most definitely. IMO it's the one thing that people could be said to be voting For. The public do value the NHS. I suspect myself that it's this as much as any other issue which cost May her majority.

MissionItsPossible · 13/10/2017 10:55

It's not a matter of not being trusted to vote. It's a matter of most people not knowing enough to vote in an informed way.

So, again, would you have preferred a Conservative government to pull us out of the EU with no public say at all? If the vote had been to stay do you believe most people would have known enough to vote in an informed way?

MissionItsPossible · 13/10/2017 10:57

I am arguing that this is in effect what Theresa May is doing. She has declared that we will leave the Single Market and Customs Union. She has stated that there will be no Referendum.

Of course not, because we've had a referendum already. My response was to a person that thinks that it never should have been in the hands of the public. The alternative would be that it was in the hands of the government, hence my question.

Peregrina · 13/10/2017 11:06

The alternative would be that it was in the hands of the government, hence my question.

And if May had put we would leave the Single Market, Customs Union and ECJ etc. in a Manifesto, won an election with a majority and put it in the Queen's speech then yes. A not unreasonable assumption would be that since they had been elected with a majority, that was what the public wanted.

That's partly why she came unstuck with proposals for Grammar Schools and a vote on Fox Hunting - they were just ideas plucked out of the air apparently because she felt like them, with no sort of mandate anywhere.

LeavesinAutumn · 13/10/2017 11:07

It's not a matter of not being trusted to vote. It's a matter of most people not knowing enough to vote in an informed way

  1. the EU changed in all ways since the initial vote back in the 70's, you cannot drag a country into a different political system without allowing the people a vote on it. Our country has been a beacon of democracy around the world and in giving a ref on this it continues to be so.

  2. The EU itself is a murky dark world that no amount of study could shed light on, there will never be true informed knowledge of this monolithic beast. For instance you get some handle on it then you realise the man who was forced out of his job because he couldn't sign off the accounts has been silenced. Confused We can only begin to imagine the sort of treachery that goes on there.

  3. there is very likely pretty equal knowledge voting on both side. Ie people on both sides voting with very limited knowledge up to vast knowledge. ( as much as one can have on this confusing murky organisation.

  4. however complicated it is , the lack of knowledge on the EU, is moot, because coming back to our country - the UK, we cannot be dragged into a new political system without allowing our people to have a vote - see 1.

Some comments to make me question the posters belief in democracy. Most leavers value democracy above all else, and freedom.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2017 11:08

The EU Parliament, with an MEP you voted for, holds the executive to account

I'm honestly sad that you've been hoodwinked enough to believe that you believe this is democracy.

There is a fundamental problem with the UK and accountability of the EU parliament. Much of this relates to our entire relationship with the EU parliament in the first place.

The EU parliament is surprisingly transparent in how they report what they are doing and why through their transcripts (in English) of their debates and votes. This is all on their website (like the UK parliament's Hansard).

The problem lies with how much respect the British media and Euro-sceptic MEPs have for that.

The British media would rather get a quote from a euro-sceptic MEP than do the research about what the EU do, who made a proposal and what the real nature of a directive is. Time and time again the british media publish stories about oppressive EU imposing controls on the UK from the lips of these politicians. They don't bother to check it was a UK idea that was introduced by our government!!

In terms of accountability, its about getting accurate information before you even start. When was the last time you saw a pro-European MEP get much of a platform in the British media?

We have very little proper understanding of how the EU parliament works and what is done there on a day to day basis in this country. What we do know generally has been filtered through Eurosceptic lips. That's not consistent with accountability.

We have the power to hold the EU to account better, through our size. We just are shitty at doing it, because we are confrontational, don't understand how it works and just generally get the backs up of our European partners. That's a failure of British politics every bit as much as failings and weakness of the EU parliament as an institution from a British perspective.

Again it comes down to a lack of understanding of politics, democracy amongst the public and those who use that ignorance for their political advantage.

Don't get me wrong. The EU IS flawed. It doesn't necessarily always serve the UK in the way we would prefer most. But that's not in the way we are led to believe. And we have not held Eurosceptic MEP who are supposed to represent us to account either.

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 11:11

RedToothBrush

The problem lies with how much respect the British media and Euro-sceptic MEPs have for that

Sorry, that's poppycock. All one has to do is look at the organisations of the EU and you're averagely intelligent person who is slightly interested in politics would be able to deem that it's not the most democratic organisation in the world without too much difficulty.

It's just convenient to blame our media.

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 11:12

We have very little proper understanding of how the EU parliament works and what is done there on a day to day basis in this country. What we do know generally has been filtered through Eurosceptic lips

Terrible generalisations.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2017 11:13

She has declared that we will leave the Single Market and Customs Union. She has stated that there will be no Referendum.

Theresa May has said lots of things.

And then changed her mind, when it has been politically impossible to see through what she has said.

Theresa May ultimately would have a referendum, if she though it was to her political advantage to have one, and support her position. That situation may or may not arise.

If you think differently you really haven't been paying attention to May as a politician and don't understand politics.