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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If a new referendum on Brexit was announced..

582 replies

bbcessex · 11/10/2017 07:51

Would you be up in arms about that?
Discussing last night.. I think given the margins in the last vote and the (being charitable) confusion and uncertainty over the Brexit plans, a new referendum would generally be accepted.

DH (remainer) thinks a re-vote is not constitutional & would cause uproar (amongst all).

Who is unreasonable ?

OP posts:
LeavesinAutumn · 13/10/2017 11:14

Part of the reason we are currently in such a mess in this country is because not enough people understand these concepts and have swallowed the bullshit of politicians trying to cover their arses by redefining why they don't have to listen to public opinion properly, whilst they pursue their own agendas.

^^ Hilarious and we are supposed to hold eu to account as well. !!

Moussemoose · 13/10/2017 11:16

M4Dad

The EU Parliament, with an MEP you voted for, holds the executive to account

I'm honestly sad that you've been hoodwinked enough to believe that you believe this is democracy

I'm honestly sad you engage in a debate when you clearly have so little understanding of the issues.

A system where the legislature holds the executive (which is a separate body) to account is the most common form of democratic system. The USA, France (most European countries in fact) and many, many countries operate on a system similar to this.

The writers of the US constitution Benjamin Franklin, James Madison etc deliberately ensured the executive and legislature were separate but could hold each other to account.

If I have been 'hoodwinked' I am in the company of some of the cleverest political thinkers in history. I can live with that.

You, I believe, are in the company of the Daily Mail......

Springbreeze · 13/10/2017 11:18

M4Dad - for someone who is so insistent on constitutional form, you have refused to address the issue that the structure of UK institutions is profoundly undemocratic.

You are also uninterested that the 'province' you came from was created as a result of a profoundly undemocratic process and against the notion of the nation state.

This suggests to me that whether you dress it up as 'democracy' concerns, ultimately your beliefs are based on deeply-held identity not logic.

For example, you complained earlier about the EU's treatment of Greece. I presume this means that as a member of an EU member state you believed that more of your taxes should have gone to Greece. If it doesn't, then what is your point?

Peregrina · 13/10/2017 11:20

Theresa May ultimately would have a referendum, if she though it was to her political advantage to have one, and support her position.

I think you may have misunderstood my post Red. I fully agree with your statement. She said she was not going to call a GE - how many times was it, five or six? She did. I don't doubt that she will forever rue the day.

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 11:20

Mousse

Yeah, I'm not falling for that bullshit either. Good effort though.

The EU has massive democratic deficiencies, I know you know this.

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 11:22

You are also uninterested that the 'province' you came from was created as a result of a profoundly undemocratic process and against the notion of the nation state

Sorry, what do you mean by that?

Moussemoose · 13/10/2017 11:23

M4Dad

Yeah, I'm not falling for that bullshit either. Good effort though

Please explain specifically which bit was bullshit? The bit about a separate legislature and executive. I'm sure the Americans would love to know how there beautifully designed system was errrr 'bullshit'.

I await your reply with interest.

RandomlyGenerated · 13/10/2017 11:25

LeavesInAutumn

For instance you get some handle on it then you realise the man who was forced out of his job because he couldn't sign off the accounts has been silenced

Do you have a link for this?

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 11:27

Moussee

I'll answer you if you answer me?

Do you think the EU could me *more" democratic or are you happy with the currently level of democracy within the Organisations?

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 13/10/2017 11:31

Those who are arguing about the result not being constitutionally binding why wasn't the question put to the public differently

And more importantly why wasn't this openly debated in all the debates beforehand or for a second referendum on the outcome

It wasn't it was rushed through and now we have to deal with the result

muttmad · 13/10/2017 11:33

I’ll say again we do not have a major influence on EU decisions, we have 70 odd MEP’S.... Germany alone have over 90. If the U.K. votes against a proposals we are over ruled by Germany alone, even before you add in France etc.
In recent years the UK is the country said to be most often on the loosing side of a vote.

LeavesinAutumn · 13/10/2017 11:34

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3742148.stm

"The Commission has again persecuted another whistleblower whose only crime was to stand up and raise concerns on the EU's accounting procedures."
The Spanish official went public in 2002 with claims that the EU's 100bn euro (£69bn) budget was open to fraud and abuse.

Mrs Andreasen's supporters regard her as a scapegoat and a whistleblower.

She was brought in as chief accountant in 2002, not long after the EU executive led by Jacques Santer was brought down by a financial scandal in 1999.

A Brussels whistleblower sacked for alleging that EU book-keeping was riddled with "slush funds and fraud" vowed to fight on after she lost her battle against wrongful dismissal.
Mrs Andreasen was fired in 2005 by her then boss Neil Kinnock for going public three years earlier with revelations of a £130 million discrepancy between two sets of EU accounts.
The Spanish accountant, who has been backed by many MEPs, believes that the courts have moved against her to silence other whistleblowers.
Yesterday's ruling came just days before the European Court of Auditors is expected to refuse to sign the EU's accounts for the 13th year running.
"It is pretty clear that people will know that if they open their mouth and make any criticism, even strictly professional as I did, they will pay a high price. They will have to prepare to be dismissed and to have no defence," she said.

Springbreeze · 13/10/2017 11:35

I mean that NI is not a nation and never has been. It was also not created through a democratic process. Its existence lacks legitimacy which is both why it is a perennial source of conflict and also why the DUP are so intransigent - at the heart of their flag-waving is a deep insecurity and a feeling that their culture and way of life are under threat.

In 1919 Ireland voted overwhelmingly (>75%) for independence, including 28 out of 32 counties voting in favour.

The only part that wanted to remain under British rule were four counties where a significant part of the population was descended from Protestant settlers. The wishes of this group were prioritised over the democratic mandate of everyone else and the country was split. The boundaries that were drawn reflected none that had pre-existed and included two counties (including my own) that had voted for independence.

Under the EU, this had really ceased to matter. However, under a Brexit Britain which wishes to control its own borders and to require fingerprints of non-British, it matters a lot.

LeavesinAutumn · 13/10/2017 11:38

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/1405520/Whistle-blower-admits-defeat-on-EU-corruption.html

A whistle-blower who brought down Jacques Santer's European Commission on fraud charges three years ago has resigned.
Paul van Buitenen, 45, leaves office today after admitting defeat in his fight to root out corruption.
He plans to slip away quietly after serving his last day as a fonctionnaire, saying only that he was "bitterly disappointed" at the failure of the new team under Romano Prodi to clean up the system.

He believes that the European Union's secretive machinery is inherently "unreformable" as long as it remains beyond the control of an elected parliament.Mr van Buitenen told The Telegraph that the last straw was the harsh treatment of the commission's chief accountant, Marta Andreasen. She was removed from her post and subjected to disciplinary proceedings after disclosing that the £62 billion EU budget was "out of control".
Miss Andreasen claims to have been followed in the streets by a team of men, apparently in a crude attempt to intimidate her. Several EU officials have been suspended in recent months for either exposing fraud or for trying to resist political pressure to compromise their work as civil servants.
In 1999 Mr van Buitenen exposed the worst scandal in European community history by disclosing endemic abuse at the top of the commission, mostly through use of fictitious contracts to outside consultants."I saw the same people responsible for all these abuses still there in the commission, or even promoted. I read articles saying that Kinnock was pushing through all these reforms, when I knew it was not really happening. So I just had to react."
Last year he sent Mr Kinnock's office a 235-page dossier, backed by 5,000 pages of documents, alleging that the old cases had been swept under the carpet and exposing new fraud scandals.
A few of the allegations have led to inquiries by the EU's new anti-fraud office, Olaf, and others have been referred to prosecutors in member states.
But Mr van Buitenen believes that Olaf has shut down much of the inquiry, shielding what he calls the "core of power" in Brussels.

Moussemoose · 13/10/2017 11:39

M4Dad

I could indeed reorganise the EU, but I feel there are significantly more issues within the UK system, no elected second chamber for example.

However, I have responded to several of your points and you have responded to none of mine. Please, could you tell me why a separate legislature that holds another democratic body to account is undemocratic?

habenero20 · 13/10/2017 11:40

TheElements is quite right habenero20. It was explained. The IMF had been saying that sterling was overvalued for years before Brexit. They even carried on saying sterling was overvalued after the 'Brexit devaluation'

You can google search yourself, but several banks now say that the pound is the most undervalued currency in the world, by possibly 20%.

Springbreeze · 13/10/2017 11:41

Leaves - do you any more reports that are not 15 years out of date?

RandomlyGenerated · 13/10/2017 11:42

Thanks Leaves, nice to see articles from 15 years ago.

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 11:45

I could indeed reorganise the EU, but I feel there are significantly more issues within the UK system

But we're not talking about the UK system, are we? That's another thread.

makeourfuture · 13/10/2017 11:47

Leaves, the EU Parliament has been greatly strengthened since then.

Perhaps a sign that it is not in fact "unreformable"?

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 11:47

Please, could you tell me why a separate legislature that holds another democratic body to account is undemocratic

Good luck finding where I said that.

M4Dad · 13/10/2017 11:48

the EU Parliament has been greatly strengthened since then.

Have you got a link for that please? Or is that just your opinion?

makeourfuture · 13/10/2017 11:50

Hilarious and we are supposed to hold eu to account as well

Again, "The EU" is not "over there". We are part of it. A strong part of it. "They" don't do things, "we" do things.

RedToothBrush · 13/10/2017 11:54

Sorry, that's poppycock. All one has to do is look at the organisations of the EU and you're averagely intelligent person who is slightly interested in politics would be able to deem that it's not the most democratic organisation in the world without too much difficulty.

I note you use the word 'seem'. Would you like to expand on that a little. You aren't very confident in that. Its a very vague comment.

'Too convenient to blame the media.'

Where are you getting your information from? How do you know what the EU does? Can you tell me what the EU does? Can you tell me the name of all your MEPs (without checking - this is about you being honest with yourself and not 'proving' it to me btw)?

The role of the media in a democracy is to be the channel through which the public get most of their information about government from. The purpose of the media in a democracy is to point out when representatives say/do things in a way which is inaccurate and is not just to repeat those fallacies. It is not to simply repeat what they are told, but to check what they are told and assess its value and merit.

What do you think the purpose of the media in a democracy actually is? Your response that I'm taking the easy way out in blaming the media is actually funny.

The triangle of the relationship between the Media - Law - The Executive has been weakened to a point which has become dangerous in this country in terms of accountability. Too many people have no concept of what this even is.

And the alternative is... ?

Democracy is generally not perfect. The idea that our British system is 'better' is one I also struggle with. Indeed the EU has provided a useful tool to protect us against abuses from our state at times. Without it, we will have different problems with accountability. It won't reduce them.

To reduce them, you have to hold politicians to account. There is VERY little of that going on right now. This is a weakness of other politicians and yes the media in this country and one of public apathy and ignorance.

This is the real failure of British politics. This is not about a single party, but of all of them. Until we wake up to this we will never be served better.

There was a survey done at the time of the referendum which found that reasons for voting the way people did was driven primarily by domestic concerns and domestic policies. This was for both remain voters and leave voters. The number of voters who voted on the basis of European issues was TINY. Shockingly so.

Even amongst remainers, there is a huge amount of ignorance about accountability and why decisions are made and who they are made by. Local politics were often mistaken as European Issues. That's not even mistaking National policy for European Policy.

There are problems that need to be solved, but unless we actually understand what the problem is, we can not solve the problem.

We blame the EU for things it does not do. We let people who blame the EU for their mistakes off because of this. What the EU itself does wrong, is lost in this. That makes it very difficult to be able to make those changes to the EU where they do exist and are necessary.

And above all else, when we don't like something, its not enough to merely go - 'we don't like this'. You also have to ask the question - 'what is the alternative?' too. Otherwise you are not really winning in the end anyway.

I am not pro-EU in the sense people will paint me. I am pro-accountability first. I don't think we solve problems of accountability either within the EU Parliament or in British Governance by seeing Brexit as the solution to that. Its a quick fix idea that won't work and will backfire.

And yes the media very much fails into this dynamic. The reality is its easier to blame the EU for our own ignorance and acceptance of ignorance, and then say there is nothing wrong with UK politics and the British Media. This lets us off the hook of dealing with difficult social problems and issues and allows us to not examine our own national failings in our culture and our politics. It allows us to justify voting for lazy, ignorant shits rather than make a fuss about their corruption. Its about our sense of pride as a nation.

Its categorically not about what the EU Parliament, does or does not do.

Brexit needs to be seen as a twin issue. One about our relationship with Europe and one which is about our political and democratic collapse in accountability on a national level. The two are connected.

makeourfuture · 13/10/2017 12:01

Do you think the EU could me more" democratic or are you happy with the currently level of democracy within the Organisations?*

I am quite happy.

The chief area of concern regarding a supposed "democratic deficit" was the comitology process. That specifically the Commission's committees acted with little transparency. They, after all, create the vast majority of non-legislated rules.

It sounds sinister doesn't it? Frenchmen off in a room somewhere.

But in reality the committees deal almost exclusively with the minutia of trade. Like the grading of stress factors on brake pads, and the number of spots an orange can have before it is downgraded to B class. These meetings are now open - though more boring transcripts are hard to imagine (unless you are in the brake pad or orange business). But again in reality, brake pad manufacturers and orange growers were always consulted about these things. And national governments of course followed and were included.

The "bent banana" crap is the most well-known example.

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