Grandfather slated 12 year old girl

[littlebird7]

My sister has just been here sobbing.
I have never seen her so angry or upset, she could barely breathe and I am feeling really choked for her.

She was at my parents house and my df whom suffers from mild depression took it upon himself to rip into my niece whom is 12 yrs and very quiet and sensitive girl at the dinner table.
He commented on her weight, her hair (said it was greasy, it definitely isn't, she just styled it differently) he said he clothes look second hand from a charity shop (she was wearing ripped leggings which are fashionable these days) and said she was stupid and dumb. I am not sure how my sister got out of the house without a serious fall out, but she called me last night and has been here today, she is so distressed I don't know what to say to her.

I have since called my mum and she confirmed that it all happened, and she was crying and saying she thought df was just joking. Clearly this just isn't funny. My niece is mortified and wounded and refusing to see him again, she was already scared of him before as he has a temper and keeps screaming at the family dog. At this age you have to be so careful about eating disorders etc. She is really skinny already and def does not need to lose weight.

What can I say to my sister, my mum, should I speak to my Dad? My sister has just been through two major operations and has another one coming up, she has quite a few serious health problems. This is the last thing she needs. Any advice please - thanks

If no one has stood up to him, at the time he is being abusive, then he is presuming that his behaviour is acceptable.
He is seeing it as 'fixing' his niece so she is acceptable to the world (in his eyes). Like anyone who beats their children, they take the stance that it's discipline and it's 'teaching' the child how to behave.
In reality, its rude and abusive.
If it happens to a child, and grown ups are present, and the grown ups do nothing...then that Silence is signalling agreement with the abuser. Silence is damaging. Silence is collusion. Other grown ups know when another adult is being an insulting pig, but children don't.
All it takes is someone to quietly say 'don't speak to her like that, it's unacceptable' and then just leave. It doesn't have to be a big kicking off row.
I'd be also a bit wary of 'making a big deal' out of it with your niece. Because she is then going to see people all getting really upset over something to do with her. And she won't want anyone getting into trouble over her, she really won't.
So don't get it out of your system by focusing on the niece, because you don't want to tackle your dad.
But it does need to made clear to her and the other children, that their grandfather is an abusive arsehole and she's to take absolutely no notice of anything he says.

This horror of a father and grandfather has conditioned the people around him to take his abuse. Your mum, like many, many other abused people, has enabled him by staying. He behaves like this because there are no real consequences for his actions.

I'd suggest your niece needs you and your sister to show her that this behaviour is unacceptable. Perhaps decide what contact you are prepared to have with your "d"f (if any), and tell him this. Also make it clear he needs to apologise for his behaviour and to behave with consideration for others in future. And spell out the consequences if he fails to behave. And then if you need to follow through (which sadly you probably will), then follow through immediately.

In terms of your mum, she probably needs a lot of help to let her understand that she doesn't have to live this way. If a similar age to your "d"f, she should have a number of years of enjoyable living and family time ahead of her; if she stays with him it sounds like it could be fairly miserable.

It's awful being part of a dysfunctional family, I know, I'm a fully paid up member :( Even if you extricate yourself you can still see the car-crash lives of the others from a distance, and it's hard to watch.

Your poor niece, please protect her from this awful man. No one has the right to make her feel awful just to make themselves feel "big". It won't be easy for you and your sister, but it's the right thing to do.

We can't change what he said. Nothing can change his vile words

No, but they are just that words. You have said that there is no truth in them at all. So DN needs to understand that bullying isn't about the victim it's about the bully. He wants to dominate so making up bullshit to put others down is a tool in doing that. This isn't about her, but him being a horrible excuse for a human being. So the key thing is to not stand for his behaviour and keep the GCs away from him.

And with the threat of someone behaving like this randomly in the family - at the risk of being harsh do you want things to be the same? It's just time to tackle the big elephant in the room surely?

I can't see any reason that your niece has to spend any more time around this man, even if he is her grandfather.

Relationships are complex. Your sister is a grown woman and so are you. It is your choice if you want to continue to have a relationship with your father. (Easy for us to say, "cut him off." Much more difficult for you to do it.) But as a vulnerable child, your dear niece should be protected and not be put under any pressure to be around him or accommodate him.

Come Christmas and all the "family time," she shouldn't have to be around her maternal grandfather without her own father in the room. (He loves her and didn't grow up in this mess, so doesn't have any complex conflicting feelings that you and your DS maybe feeling.)

Not everybody is "nice," not even the people who are supposed to be. If you support her, and don't condone your DF's behaviour in anyway and protect her, I don't see why she won't come through it all the stronger. Think what someone should have done for you and your sister when you were children and be that person now.

I would tell him to shove his "apology" up his arse and then have no further contact with him. If possible never, though paths might cross from a distance occasionally because your mother is unlikely to leave him.

I think no contact is the only way to protect yourselves and your respective children from his bile and spite. Your mother will have to see you and them without him present. On neutral territory perhaps, or at your houses.

So sorry this has happened to your niece. 12 is early in puberty and a highly sensitive and formative age too. She is fortunate though that she has you and your sister to support her now and protect her from further harm from your father.

Your DM enabled him to abuse you, as the adult at the time she let it happen. I am glad to hear your sister isn't going to let it happen to your DN or any of the other children in your family. Make sure he isn't enabled further by being allowed to "apologise", and offer to support your mum to leave. Then you have to go NC or low contact.

Come Christmas and all the "family time," she shouldn't have to be around her maternal grandfather without her own father in the room.

Come Christmas, none of you should be around this man, in any room.

Sounds like my fil. Bad tempered, selfish bully who is forever putting his wife down, and generally mistreats her e.g. happy to but new 20K car (which he doesn't drive) but won't fork out for a carer/helper..she has disability and mobility problems and is also in the early stages of dementia). When I first met DH, and for years after, I hated having dinner at their house as he was the type to go ballistic if anyone spilled so much as a drop of gravy or a pea. Coming from a background of severe child abuse (physical and sexual) I used to be quite terrified of him, which was ridiculous as I was in my mid-30s when we met. Now I just refuse to visit, which explains why I'm here on MN while DH is visiting his mother to present her with her birthday gifts...

Your DN will only be affected long term by her GF’s words if you all behave as if it doesn’t matter, i.e. minimise it. If you show her that you won’t tolerate it by having no further contact with him, then she will see him for the pathetic bully that he is.

You and your dsis would be absolutely right to keep your children away from your father. Your mum has massive blinkers on, as she has made obvious from her reaction. They might protect her, to some extent,from the reality of your father's behaviour but they have done nothing to protect you or any other family.

So yes, circling the wagons around the grandchildren is exactly what is needed. Your mum will no doubt once again be upset that it leaves her alone to face up to the situation, rather than playing happy families but you need to make clear to her that you and your sister absolutely refuse to allow another generation of children to be subjected to and harmed by your father's vile abuse.

honestly?
i would not take my dc there ever. tell dm that she is welcome in your home but not him.
why he does it is irrelevant. the effect on kids is within your control. you have an absolute responsibility to them. line in sand and all that.

Poor you, it's like you are describing my dad. Last year because my 10 years old dd (9 at the time) was not interested in pictures he wanted to show her..lost the plot and told me I needed to seek psychiatric help for her, dd was having a hard time with school and was depressed.

You are doing the right thing in cutting out this bully. His words are just as damaging as I'd he had punched your DN. He does not deserve a place in any of your lives.

As far as your mum, reiterate to her than she has a safe haven with you should she choose to leave him and that you will always welcome her visits, but that you (all of you) will not allow the auld bastard to step foot across the threshold of any of your houses. Nor will you discuss him with her. He has taken one step too far and there is no going back. Your mum is an adult and has the right to live her life as she sees fit, even if her decisions are the result of coercion and bullying. Perhaps seeing you all cut him out will give her the confidence to leave over time. After all, one of her great fears may be leaving after a family split and then being forced back into his home as a result of a family reconciliation. She needs to know you all really mean it.

Remember that the holidays will soon be upon us. I suggest that you and your siblings form a plan now that you all can agree on as to how you will celebrate them without his presence and how you will stand together for the emotional pleas and blackmail sure to start in the near future

It seems that the OP mother has decided "not to hear" her husband's abusive words to her children and now her grandchild, because that way she doesn't have to do anything.

I am dreading christmas, seriously dreading it.

I have made my decision about not seeing him again, but the fact he isn't there will be the elephant in the room for sure. My in laws have both died, so they are the only gp my dc have. So it makes it hard for them as we have such a limited family, but we will find a way to make it fun and happy despite all of this.

As someone who grew up with a narcissistic grandparent who had to be cut out, I can tell you that children won't really notice the absence nearly as much as you will. They will want answers to questions about why he's not there, and these are best dealt with as simply and honestly as possible.

The sooner you stop mourning the loss of an idealised nuclear family that doesn't exist in your case, and start accepting the family you do have who are close and loving, the better. It is better to have Christmas your way, on your terms, than to see a 12 year old torn to shreds by an angry old man with a self-control issue.

He is a nasty and abusive bully! I would never have my children round him again. He was an abusive father and now is an abusive grandfather.

Good for you op.

Doing the right thing can be hard but it’s not just the right thing to do it’s the only thing to do

OP, I have never had GPs, at one time I was sad about this, but not now. (It’s a good thing that my DDs’ GF isn’t around!) No GPs is much better than toxic GPs. And hopefully you will still have contact with your DM. It will just need to be in your home and without your father.

About Christmas, I would have it with you, dh and the kids, not your them. You cannot expose your kids to that.

Reading the posts about other people being in a similar position is really comforting, as I have never spoken about our childhood to anyone (my mother once warned us that we would be taken away if anyone found out) so I never said a word about it to a living soul apart from my dh he is the only person who knows.

Reading your experiences makes me feel less alone and worried, and also that others have found ways to calmly detach from those that have hurt them. I doubt my dsis and I would have had the courage if it were not for my dn, we would have muddled along putting up with him, but this is the red line for all of us I think.

Thank you so much to everyone, I really feel so much more confident now to really make a stand, and know that we are not wrong or 'overreacting' in any way. Thank you.

I think it would spend my time and attention focusing on my db, if I were you, rather than my parents. Your df has done something horrific. You couldn't pick a better age to destroy a child's confidence. I think if my df did that do my dd (god forbid) I'd happily never see again and hope he rotted in hell.

Please take the family dog to live with you!

"my mother once warned us that we would be taken away if anyone found out"

It may well have been better for you and your sister if you had been taken away. She wasn't prepared to leave him to protect you.

"Rubies12345" the dog lives with the OP's sister.