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How to stop brexit and make Britain great again

288 replies

SupportTheresaElseBoris · 09/10/2017 20:53

So Nick Clegg has a new book out called How to stop brexit and make Britain great again.

Aibu to think its time to just get on with brexit and stop this uncertainty? It didn't work for the lib Dems at the ellection and it now seems like dragging it on for as long as possible will make the worst of a bad situation.

OP posts:
MsLumley · 10/10/2017 14:56

I've never been a fan of Nick Clegg but I totally agree with everything he is saying in this book. A lot of people who voted brexit did so on the basis of false promises and hopes which we now know are unlikely ever to materialise. The country should be allowed another, informed, referendum, now that we actually know what Brexit will really look like. It won't change every Brexit voter's mind and might not even change the result but at least it would be an informed decision that nobody could accuse of being unfair.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 10/10/2017 14:59

Yay are we going to trample over two thirds of the world and rule over these countries again

Becuase that is when Britain was great for all the wrong reasons

MyOtherProfile · 10/10/2017 15:10

Britain voted to remain in EEC in 1973.

We joined the EU in the early 1990s with no vote and therefore it was not a democratic decision. The government at the time just did it.

Nikibabe that's rubbish. Maastricht was a rebrand of what already existed. We were already in it.

outabout · 10/10/2017 15:19

Since the English government struggle to keep Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland completely 'on side' through proper dialogue, the risk of trampling over anyone again looks slim.
'Ruling' such a significant part of the globe all those years ago was only possible because you could 'get away' with shooting anyone that stood in the way. There are skilled negotiators around but I am not convinced they are that close to Downing Street.

SilverySurfer · 10/10/2017 15:22

Too funny - thanks for the laugh

outabout · 10/10/2017 15:25

The 'English' are largely 'mongrels' racially, as the British Isles have been invaded repeatedly over thousands of years so being a mix of many 'races' from much of Europe and further afield.

squishysquirmy · 10/10/2017 15:35

Bornfree The reason why public services are strained now is not because of immigrants clogging up the NHS. It is because of the elderly. That is not the fault of the elderly of course, but it is a fact that an aging population will put more strain on health services, with a smaller proportion of the population working and paying tax to fund those services.

We cannot fund the NHS as though the demographics of the UK have not changed over the past few decades, and not expect a decline in standards.

One thing has a knock on effect on another, for eg one tiny example:
Elderly people are often unable to get the social care they need when they fall sick, so remain in hospital. This in turn means there are fewer beds available for people coming into hospital, and at busy times even ambulances are often unable to handover their patients to A&E. So fewer ambulances are available to respond to 999 calls because they are queing outside A&E.
The numbers of patients presenting at A&E is compounded by the fact that many of these people are there because they couldn't get GP appointments. This is not because immigrants are clogging up GP waiting rooms, but partly because an aging population requires more health care and partly because there is a shortage of GPs (especially in rural and expensive areas). In fact the GP shortage would be far, far worse without immigrants.

This demographic change was predictable, and would be worse if it wasn't for immigrants! Even now, the government is refusing to address the problems caused adequately. You talked about cuts to coucnils; as far as I am aware, TM has not said she will change the plan to dramatically cut centralised council funding over the next few years.
It wont be too bad if you live in a wealthy, young area and you can afford the rate rises, but if you live in a deprived area or an area with high costs prepare for services to continue to get much worse. Again, this has nothing to do with immigrants.

squishysquirmy · 10/10/2017 15:36
SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 10/10/2017 15:39

Frankly I'd dread another referendum - I'd fear Leave voters would just double-down on their voting intentions, rather than admit they were wrong. There's no reason to think they'd inform themselves any better a second time around, and they'd just shout democracy democracy and then vote us out no matter what the current deal looked like or how obvious and catastrophic its consequences were clearly going to be.

SupportTheresaElseBoris · 10/10/2017 15:44

Have you actually read the book MsLumley?

I didn't realise that it comes out on Thursday when I started it. I guess some people will receive it from tomorrow and most on Thursday. I'm interested in reading it, but might wait for a library copy.

OP posts:
Theresamayscough · 10/10/2017 16:04

Not sure about that Seeker

I think some who voted leave might have changed their minds now reality sets in.

And if we do have another vote it would be grossly unfair to exclude 16/17 year olds and brits living abroad

user1486062886 · 10/10/2017 16:12

squishysquirmy I do agree with a lot of your post, it is not the immigrants fault, but surely you can see the fault in allowing over 3-4 million immigrants in to this country without the necessary services in place to handle this large number and adding to population getting older, it was not carried out in a thought out way, the gates were just opened wide without any thought to the ramifications, political and social

Theworldisfullofidiots · 10/10/2017 16:19

And that was are governments fault. We wanted the benefits without responsibility. All the gain with no investment.
Without immigration we are going to turn into a PIG country or Japan, one long slow declining recession.
But no don't worry with no Deal, well have one big shock and then never recover. As well as having to manage all the old people as the young leave. A 21st century potato famine.

Fresh8008 · 10/10/2017 17:23

She could just say that the evil EU were determined to punish brave old Britain for trying to leave and that she in her great capacity, as a stable caring leader, wouldn't impose such hardship on hard working families, children and kittens.
Therefore, with a heavy heart, she will stay in the EU and continue to negotiate the best deal for Britain!

She could just say that the evil EU were determined to punish brave old Britain for trying to leave and that she in her great capacity, as a stable caring leader, would not surrender our country and give up the freedom of hard working families, children and kittens.
Therefore, with a heavy heart, she will pull out the EU immediately, stand up for Britain and wait until the EU come to us looking for a good deal.

histinyhandsarefrozen · 10/10/2017 17:38

And that is how deluded some of them are.

Bizarre.

maxthemartian · 10/10/2017 17:51

Here is your no-deal Brexit, by prominent Brexiter Pete North. Sounds fun. Enjoy it.

"Now that we know there isn't going to be a deal we can at least narrow down some of the possibilities of what post-Brexit Britain looks like.

In the first year or so we are going to lose a lot of manufacturing. Virtually all JIT export manufacturing will fold inside a year. Initially we will see food prices plummet but this won't last. Domestic agriculture won't be able to compete and we'll see a gradual decline of UK production. UK meats will be premium produce and no longer affordable to most.

Once food importers have crushed all UK competition they will gradually raise their prices, simply because they can. Meanwhile wages will stay depressed and because of the collapse of disposable income and availability of staff, we can probably expect the service sector to take a big hit thus eliminating all the jobs that might provide a supplementary income.

Across the board we will see prices rising. There will be some serendipitous benefits but nothing that offsets the mass job losses. We will see a lot of foreign investment dry up and banking services will move to the EU. Dublin and Frankfurt. I expect that house prices will start to fall, but that's not going to do anyone any favours in the short to mid term.

Since a lot of freight will no longer be able to go through Calais we can expect a lot more use of the port at Hull so we may see an expansion in distribution centres in the North.

All in all we are looking at serious austerity as it will take a few years at least to rebuild our trade relations with third countries. If we go down the path of unilateral trade liberalisation then we will probably find it hard to strike new deals.

Meanwhile, since tax receipts will be way down we can expect major cuts to the forces and a number of Army redundancies. I expect to see RAF capability cut by a third. Soon enough it will become apparent that cuts to defence cannot go further so we can expect another round of cuts to council services. They will probably raise council tax to cope with it.

After years of the left bleating about austerity they are about to find out what it actually means. Britain is about to become a much more expensive pace to live. It will cause a spike in crime.

Interesting though will be how rapidly people adapt to it and habits will change, thus so will the culture. I expect cheap consumables from China will stay at low prices and they manage to circumvent the taxes and import controls anyway.

What I do expect to happen is a lot of engineering jobs to be axed since a lot of them are dependent on defence spending. It will kill off a number of parasitic resourcing firms and public sector suppliers. Basically it will wipe out the cosseted lower middle class and remind them that they are just as dispensable as the rest of us.

We can the expect to see a major rationalisation of the NHS and what functions it will perform. It will be more of a skeleton service than ever. I expect they will have trouble staffing it. Economic conditions more than any immigration control will bring numbers down to a trickle.

In every area of policy a lot of zombie projects will be culled and the things that survive on very slender justifications will fall. We can also expect banks to pull the plug in under-performing businesses. Unemployment will be back to where it was in the 80's.

The London economy will also change. Initially we will see an exodus back to the regions until rental prices normalise to the new conditions. Anyone who considers themselves "Just about managing" right now will look upon this time as carefree prosperity. There are going to be a lot of very pissed off people.

This will see a revival of local politics and national politics will become a lot more animated. I expect the Tories will be wiped out and we will have to put up with a Corbyn government for a while, but they will be tasked with making all the major cuts. We'll soon see how far their "compassion" really goes. Even if Corbs does manage to borrow, it won't go very far. It won't plug the hole.

Eventually things will settle down and we will get used to the new order of things. My gut instinct tells me that culturally it will be a vast improvement on the status quo. There will be more reasons to cooperate and more need to congregate. I expect to see a cultural revolution where young people actually start doing surprising and reckless things again rather than becoming tedious hipsters drinking energy drinks in pop-up cereal bar book shops or whatever it is they do these days. We'll be back to the days when students had to be frugal and from their resourcefulness manage to produce interesting things and events.

A few years in and we will then have started to rebuild EU relations, probably plugging back into Euratom, Erasmus, and a large part of the single market. It will take some time to plug back into the EU aviation market. The EU will be very cautious about what it lets us back in on.

Effectively we are looking at a ten year recession. Nothing ever experienced by those under 50. Admittedly this is not the Brexit I was gunning for. I wanted a negotiated settlement to maintain the single market so that we did not have to be substantially poorer, but, in a lot of ways I actually prefer this to the prospect of maintaining the 2015 status quo with ever degraded politics with increasingly less connection to each other.

I'm of the view that in recent years people have become increasingly spoiled and self-indulgent, inventing psychological problems for themselves in the absence of any real challenges or imperatives to grow as people. I have always primarily thought Brexit would be a reboot on British politics and culture. In a lot of ways it will bring back much of what is missing. A little austerity might very well make us less frivolous.

What I do know is that the banking crisis of 2008 set in motion a series of events whereby much of the corrective potential of it was dissipated with debt and spending, largely to preserve the political order. The disruptive potential of it was barely felt in the UK. Ever since we have stagnated and though the numbers on screen may tell a story of marginal growth, I just don't see it reflected in the world around me. I still see the regions dying out and London sucking the life and vitality out of every city, including Bristol. It reminds me that the wealth of a city is its people, not its contribution to GDP.

Ahead lies challenging times. It will not be easy. Those who expected things to improve will be disappointed. But then I have a clear conscience in this. I never made any big Brexit promises. I never said there would be sunlit uplands. I did not predict that the government would make this much of a pigs ear of it, or that we would be looking at the WTO option. I expected parliament would step in to prevent that. That it hasn't tells you a good deal about the state of modern politics.

And so with that in mind, as much as I would have had it go a different way, I think, given the opportunity to vote again I would still vote to leave. Eventually it gets to a point where any change will do. I prefer an uncertain future to the certainty I was looking at."

Fresh8008 · 10/10/2017 17:52

I know, it is mad how so many people are desperate to sell out their country.

histinyhandsarefrozen · 10/10/2017 17:54

How do you mean 'sell out'?

Fresh8008 · 10/10/2017 17:54

TLDR. Project fear is a busted flush.

Fresh8008 · 10/10/2017 17:56

How do you mean 'sell out'?

Giving up our country to the supreme control of the EU superstate.

PortiaCastis · 10/10/2017 17:58

Jeez max that's a very scary read!!

histinyhandsarefrozen · 10/10/2017 17:59

No I still don't get you- what do you mean 'give up our country'?

allegretto · 10/10/2017 17:59

the supreme control of the EU superstate

The EU isn't controlling us. We were part of the EU. We proposed laws and regulations which we voted on. I don't understand how that is giving up control.

Fresh8008 · 10/10/2017 18:00

No I still don't get you- what do you mean 'give up our country'?
Giving up our country to the supreme control of the EU superstate.
And if you don't know what that mean I guess that why you have your waving the white flag.

allegretto · 10/10/2017 18:03

I guess that why you have your waving the white flag.
Nope, that doesn't seem to make any sense either.