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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Strip clubs & Stag dos

784 replies

NotInMyBackYard1 · 08/10/2017 10:44

DH went on a stag do in the summer, one night away at a weekend, obvs he came back tired and hungover but said he'd had a good time and didn't go to bed until 630am. I asked which bars stayed open until then but was told they do in Liverpool (?) obviously I am very naive!
Have since found out they were all at a lap dancing club without the stag - he'd gone to bed at midnight. AIBU to think he's bloody disgusting and to have lost all respect for him - for lying by omission and for visiting a lap dancing club in the first place.

OP posts:
KenBarlow · 10/10/2017 15:41

Good point Strauss! Anyone else and I’d think that, but not him. He reconfirmed it a good 6 years later.

But sadly based on what a friend told me it wouldn’t be surprising for that to happen at all! She also said she wouldn’t want her husband to go to a strip club based on her experience of working at once, I’d say that speaks volumes

annielouise · 10/10/2017 15:41

I think your facile arguments are summed up in this pp2017:

"But equally, why should your feelings come before a mans either..."

Bloody hell. You just don't get it. Really? A man's feelings about having to watch women strip off are more important than women being abused in a system?

So, I'm alright jack and we get turned on by it as a couple so sod the rest of you? You're no feminist. You don't care about women as a whole - anyone that can carry on arguing as you do in favour of them clearly doesn't care about women as a whole or the individuals with horrific stories to tell. You're incapable of seeing the bigger picture. You're a 'cool wife' extraordinaire.

annielouise · 10/10/2017 15:46

I'm sure if most of the women involved in the sex industry had other viable options probably 99% wouldn't get involved. Oh, you'll get the odd deluded idiot thinking it's empowering or whatever but why, if there were other options, would you?

Funny too how it's not a long-term 'career' choice. If it is you're usually doing it as you have no other option.

And pp2017 give me some examples of what a woman could get from her DH paying for a stripper? I don't mean you as you say you go and enjoy it. What about those women that don't go but say they don't mind? There is nothing positive for them apart from the two things I mentioned. That's not a sweeping generalisation. It's a fact.

Nancy91 · 10/10/2017 16:04

Annie I have to point out how insecure the "cool wife" insult sounds. Why the name calling? Just because people don't agree with you it doesn't mean they are trying to look "cool" or doing what their husbands want. Are you secretly worried you aren't cool?! Are we 12 years old now?

It's extra (easy) money on top of working a proper job. It's not long term because once you get older or have a child your body probably won't look as nice and you aren't going to make much or be allowed to dance in most clubs. So you'll need another career that has less of an expiry date. Hope that clarifies a couple of your points.

annielouise · 10/10/2017 16:08

Nancy, I've explained why I think it's apt. I won't stop using it just because you don't like it Confused. You don't see the depth of the term clearly and what it signifies. It's not just a throwaway comment.

You can't justify this job in the bigger picture of women being abused. Please don't try.

"Hope that clarifies a couple of your points." No. But well done on the attempt to patronise.

annielouise · 10/10/2017 16:10

And no it's not "easy" money for a lot of women. Are you really unable to grasp that, or do you simply not care?

DixieFlatline · 10/10/2017 16:16

Annie I have to point out how insecure the "cool wife" insult sounds. Why the name calling? Just because people don't agree with you it doesn't mean they are trying to look "cool" or doing what their husbands want. Are you secretly worried you aren't cool?! Are we 12 years old now?

Apparently, if that's the extent of your grasp of the expression. Confused Plus the 'you're just jealous' argument...

pp2017 · 10/10/2017 16:29

I’m so exasperated by people being so obtuse and entirely missing my point......

As I’ve said, I can see both sides, I don’t disagree with anything anyone has said as such, I’m just trying to explain why, in my opinion, you cannot generalise!!!

A lot of posters on here have very strong opinions on what EVERY strip club is like and what EVERY man who frequents them is like yet have openly said they’ve never been in one and don’t know any men who have - so how do you know that your opinion applies to ALL men and ALL strip clubs?

There have been sarcastic comments about how the debate is “one sided” and the other side “not offering up decent explanations” (or words to these effects). In response, I and others have tried to give examples based on our actual experiences to demonstrate that these clubs are not ALL places that exploit women, not ALL men who go there see women as a commodity and not their equal, but posters won’t even acknowledge this - it’s like you think we’re all lying or something 😳

As I’ve said in an earlier post, I’m all for tackling establishments that have unfair working practices and treat their women appallingly; I’m all for addressing antisocial behaviour outside strip clubs (in the same way any antisocial behaviour outside any pub should be addressed); but I’m also all for educating men that just because you have a desire to watch a woman strip and she is happy to do that, does not make her body a commodity and that women are still equal and should be treated as such.

Why is it so hard to believe that a man can still respect women in general and see them as equal but also enjoy seeing them dance naked? I feel like saying that they can’t is being disrespectful to men in general is it not? It’s like we’re saying they’re all Neanderthals and we’re not crediting them with being able to know that someone dancing for their entertainment also has feelings and a personality.....

This thread makes me weep that so many women have such low opinions of the male of our species......

annielouise · 10/10/2017 16:30

Ha, I know Dixie. The barb about me worrying whether I look cool or not. I'm 50. I really couldn't care about looking cool so it didn't really register.

The way I see it now pp2017 is part of the problem as a 'consumer' in the sex industry - make no bones about it but that is what she is. I'm assuming it's a she, apologies if not.

The strip club that she frequents might be comparatively 'delightful' but by going her and her DH contribute to the demand within the sex industry as a whole, and other strip clubs or parts of the sex industry won't be operating to as such 'high' standards as pp2017 thinks. So by going it's effectively condoning what happens in these other places.

The nature of the beast is abuse, men (usually) making money off women by selling their services (for not much money comparatively to what the owners make) and on the other side men 'buying' these services. So it's the double whammy of abuse from men.

Maybe pp2017's club is full of women working their way through university having a blast (I don't think so somehow) but for even one woman going through abuse they need to stop. They can't be completely policed as the women that do suffer perhaps don't speak English if they've been trafficked, perhaps are being threatened or their families are, perhaps they are being blackmailed. There are ways to silence them, which makes them vulnerable.

I hope in years to come we look back and view these places as antiquated and that we wonder why they weren't shut down sooner. We look back now on the sexism of Benny Hill and the 70s in that way.

annielouise · 10/10/2017 16:33

A classic 'cool wife' comment: "Why is it so hard to believe that a man can still respect women in general and see them as equal but also enjoy seeing them dance naked? I feel like saying that they can’t is being disrespectful to men in general is it not?"

You're the one being obtuse, pp2017, and as I said part of the problem as a consumer.

pp2017 · 10/10/2017 16:34

And pp2017 give me some examples of what a woman could get from her DH paying for a stripper? I don't mean you as you say you go and enjoy it. What about those women that don't go but say they don't mind?

But that’s my point, neither you nor I can comment about these women because we don’t know them or their situation!

Just because I like it and you don’t, doesn’t mean every woman falls into one of these categories, there could be some who would never set foot in one but don’t give a shit if their husbands do..... or maybe there aren’t, I don’t know, I just don’t see the world as black and white as a lot of people on this thread appear to 🤔

Skarossinkplunger · 10/10/2017 16:34

Whatever the version of 'happy hooker' for the pole dancer/lap dancer/ stripper is a thorn in the side of the anti-brigade. I have friends who are dancers and ex-dancers, including one who is on this thread and they truly do not regret it. Yes there are women who are exploited and that's horrific, but people are exploited in a lot of professions and people aren't screaming for them to be shut down. You can't negate some women's experience just because it doesn't fit your argument.

annielouise · 10/10/2017 16:35

But there is nothing pp2017. I can't even guess at something positive. Can you? Clearly not.

annielouise · 10/10/2017 16:36

How do you justify contributing to the abuse of women, pp2017?

sharklovers · 10/10/2017 16:37

Ah, 17 year-old boys. Never known to tell lies about their sexual exploits!

It does sound fairly plausible though! Par for the course I’d say.

pp2017 · 10/10/2017 16:38

What @Skarossinkplunger said!

All the posters saying that by going people are contributing to the sex industry, and if one woman is abused all the entire industry should be shut down....

I’m guessing you all shop entirely fair trade and have never bought your clothes from places like Primark (or any other high street store) in your lives, correct?

annielouise · 10/10/2017 16:42

Skaross - I would guess a lot of women might try to justify it as not being too bad while perhaps hiding the reality of it for various reasons. That's not that hard to believe. Women often put a brave face on things and might find it hard to admit to others or even themselves how bad it is, or how it affects them. They might feel they have had no option, weighing up the risk/reward, but really, who wants to be viewed as a piece of meat?

Skarossinkplunger · 10/10/2017 16:44

annielouise Why do you continue to insult
these women by telling them how they think and feel?

BertrandRussell · 10/10/2017 16:46

"You can't negate some women's experience just because it doesn't fit your argument."
No, you can't. Which is why you can't negate the documented experience of exploited women just because it doesn't fit your argument......

pp2017 · 10/10/2017 16:46

A classic 'cool wife' comment

Sorry I may be being a bit obtuse here, but what is a ‘cool wife’?

I feel like I should be offended but I’m not quite sure why......

annielouise · 10/10/2017 16:47

pp2017 - if you can't see that's a completely different argument then I don't know what to say. I actually do buy organic and am conscious of where I do buy things (not that I buy much as I'm not a big consumer).

Yes, there's a problem of buying cheap clothing but equally poorer countries depend on manufacturing these clothes. It's not a black and white situation. If Western countries didn't give contracts to these countries it could be said work would be lost and in that case women might have to find employment in the sex industry. I know of this as my ex was an importer of something from India and we looked into it.

In time things will change, but it does take time. It's a complex subject and not comparable. Equally, the threat of harm to people working in the sex industry is much higher than for those in the clothing industry. The sex industry that you contribute to the demand of.

Sallystyle · 10/10/2017 16:48

This thread makes me weep that so many women have such low opinions of the male of our species......

No. I expect them to be able to say no to friends when invited to a strip club and I expect them not to exploit women for their own sexual gratification. I also expect them to use their brains and not their dicks and realise that you don't know which stripper has been exploited, which one has an awful life history etc. I also expect them to understand how visiting strip clubs contribute towards the way women are viewed and treated.

It's certainly not 'our side' who has a low opinion of men.

Why is it so hard to believe that a man can still respect women in general and see them as equal but also enjoy seeing them dance naked?

It's been pointed out to you many times. I have said more than once that you can't respect women if you are a part of the problem. Annie explained it very well too.

BertrandRussell · 10/10/2017 16:48

But anyway. It's not about the women. It's about the men who use the industry. And the society that condones it.

Skarossinkplunger · 10/10/2017 16:48

Bertrand I didn't though, did I? I acknowledged that exploitation takes place, just as it does in many industries.

BertrandRussell · 10/10/2017 16:50

"A classic 'cool wife' comment

Sorry I may be being a bit obtuse here, but what is a ‘cool wife’?

I feel like I should be offended but I’m not quite sure why......"
No reason why you should be offended. The expression describes your position perfectly. I would just own it if I were you.