To think that this teacher should not have told-off a pupil on the bus

[Bookaboo]

Couple of hours after the end of school, a few kids on the bus and a guy who happens to be a teacher at their school.
The teacher stopped one lad , who was probably only in year 7, and started grilling him about why he had no tie on. Told him to see him at break tomorrow for detention, but the kid was on his way home & was doing no harm.
I felt really sorry for the kid & felt like the teacher was just being an asshole.
If that was my son in a few years I wouldn't want him to be treated like that. I know that schools have an image to uphold etc.. but jut couldn't help thinking that stuff like this makes kids feel miserable about going to school.

I wouldn't expect a teacher to intervene in bullying because they are a teacher, but because they are an adult and one who knows the children involved.
Even if they are morally obliged to intervene because they are a teacher, intervening to prevent harm to a child is completely different to intervening because some petty rule hadn't been followed.

limited

I really wonder about the kind of person who remains on duty after home time, ever vigilant for petty infringements of rules
Teachers don't get to pick and choose about these things. If them's the rules, they have to apply them.

If I was that teacher I'd spend 30 minutes tidying up my pens after school so I didn't have to share the bus with my pupils
First of all, teachers have way more than tidying up pens, so please don't trivialise the work they do once the pupils are out of the door.
Second, I can't think of anyone I've taught with who would seek to be on the same PT as pupils.

If by some horrifying chance I found myself with them I'd slink really low in my seat

Then you'd be a wanker. If you're in their company, you're still the teacher. The correct thing to do is nod and smile if they do so, ignore if they do. If they fuck up. You step in.

Your post manages to disparage that teachers are expected to do and actually do, while proposing conduct that would be unacceptable.

Aderyn, he obligation to intervene as a teacher to prevent harm is beyond the moral and is, I believe a legal obligation. Your judgement that uniform is petty is not within the remit of the teacher to decide if the school, i.e. the governors, not the teachers, decides otherwise.

Echt, it's not that I think uniform as a concept is petty - I see the arguments both for and against it and I support the school in insisting upon it during the school day. However, after school it is no one's business but the parent's what their child wears. The governors can make as many rules as they like but after school it's not their business and I would judge a teacher who attempted to enforce uniform two hours after school finished as a power tripping twat. Teachers shouldn't be blindly following rules that are silly and probably legally unenforceable.

I don't think someone is a wanker for not wanting to deal with work stuff when work is finished. If I saw work colleagues on a bus, I'd say hello, but tbh I'd rather not see them if not at work. I'd not condemn a teacher for feeling the same way about the kids. Although I do think it is nice that you don't mind.

It didn't take long for someone to trot out that school rules help prepare people for the adult world. But this is transparently bullshit.

Can anyone give me an example of a work place that enforces what you wear on the way to and from work?

Nor would they expect the boss to intervene if they were picked on while travelling home from work

If one employee was being harassed by another employee outside work hours, then in some cases the management can act.

You sound very overwrought echt. Have you been working too hard?

Teachers don't get to pick and choose about these things. If them's the rules, they have to apply them.

I'd seriously question that. Are they paid to be on duty supervising the pupils after school hours when going about their own private business? And frankly if they take the sensible course and turn a blind eye to a pupil without a tie on, who's ever going to know?

limited, soooomuch easier to get personal than deal with the arguments.

So a teacher insists that pupils follow the school rules in a public place. That's called doing their job.
You come on a public forum to complain about a teacher doing their job?
That's called being ridiculous.

Teachers don't get to pick and choose about these things. If them's the rules, they have to apply them
I'd seriously question that. Are they paid to be on duty supervising the pupils after school hours when going about their own private business? And frankly if they take the sensible course and turn a blind eye to a pupil without a tie on, who's ever going to know?

They are not paid to supervise pupils when out on their own private business, but the occasion given by the OP was within the bounds expected by many schools, i.e pupils travelling to and from school while in uniform. Because the OP has not been able to tell us the particular school's rules, we don't know.

As for being "sensible", and "who's ever going to know", this entire thread is based on what a member of the public chose to write about on the
internet, so the idea of anonymity only takes you so far. I can assure you that the public do talk about conduct of pupils, and make judgments about uniform, hence the actions taken by some schools.

You can take any single school rule and make it look petty in isolation. But take look at the rule book as a whole and it embodies the overall ethos of a school. In this case it is to make sure the school is well represented to the general public to create a positive impression.

Personal Echt? Remind me who called who a wanker? Do you use that language when trying to instill a sense of respect and appropriate behaviour in young people? How does that work for you?

At work I would enforce a rule, but I would be more concerned with sensible rules about safety and welfare. When the bell went, my time would be my own, and so would my students' and I would not be pulling them up about uniform infringements.

If I witnessed bullying or any other anti social behaviour by school pupils, or anyone outside school, I would do something. But I don't have to be a teacher to do that. Just an adult with a sense of perspective.

WhoPopped, a rule that requires pupils to be wearing a tie on public transport two hours after school is over and that failure to do so requires a detention is petty, on any interpretation - whether it's seen as a whole with other rules or not. And indeed it brings other rules into disrepute. Frankly, seeing a teacher having a bit of a power trip with a pupil in public on something as petty as this presents a wholly negative impression of the school.

Two hours after school, teachers don't have jurisdiction with regard to pupils' appearance, and if they try to interfere they aren't "doing their job".

Ceto if the kids are in school uniform and it states in the school rules they have to be wear the uniform correctly outside the school premises, then the teachers do have jurisdiction and are doing the right thing. The kids are still in uniform and still represent the school when they are wearing it.
Not sure why people think the teacher's authority over things like this stops with the school bell.

Not sure why you think their authority extends to the time when the dc are with their parents. School's authority doesn't supercede parental authority.

The uniform is paid for by parents, therefore they get to decide what happens to it outside school hours - not the staff.

if the kids are in school uniform and it states in the school rules they have to be wear the uniform correctly outside the school premises, then the teachers do have jurisdiction

Says who? The school? There are no laws regarding this as far as I know.

I work in a horribly corporate place in the City and trends are very much heading towards less ties etc. No bad thing IMO. Such an unnecessary strip of garish (mostly) fabric that gets in the way and has zero actual purpose!

If we focused more on output and less on the appearances of others things would be a lot more honest.

This takes me back! I went to a private convent girls’ school and we were expected to look smart at all times. I can see the point; if a school has a uniform then the reasoning behind is that the children are representing the school when they’re wearing it.

It’s actually true of the police and the army, when they’re wearing their uniform they are expected to behave accordingly.

I think it’s fair enough for the teacher to pull a child up for not wearing the tie; imposing a detention was overkill. But if it happened to one of my DDs, I would support the teacher if they moaned about it.

*It's funny as everyone wants their kids to go to 'good' schools and knows that 'good' schools tend to be more strict.

When a teacher behaves according to the rules of that school - which is that if you're on your way home from school you wear the full uniform, or if you're wearing any part of the uniform you also have to wear your tie, then people start banging on about teachers overstepping the mark.

Do you really think a teacher wants to bother with kids on the way home? Do you REALLY think it's a power trip?*

Exactly my sentiment - I'm late 20s, my school was like this and I see nothing wrong with it.

Tbh, I think schools are good if there is an ethos of children and teachers speaking to each other with respect and kindness, if the school is strict about turning up on time, not arsing about in class, doing the work set. If the school is hot on anti bullying and supports the mental health of students and the management team are approachable and respond to parent/student concerns promptly.
None of that has anything to do with wearing a tie on the bus home and everything to do with the way the school is managed during the school day.

It’s actually true of the police and the army, when they’re wearing their uniform they are expected to behave accordingly.

Yes, it is military and paramilitary organizations that require uniform to be worn perfectly, even if they're off duty while wearing it. I'm not sure that is necessarily a good model for schools to follow.

I thought exactly the same thing today SenecaFalls but I don't post on MN from work. Neither would I look kindly on a superior who ticked off an off duty nurse about their uniform lapses while going home after a shift. I don't think many other people would either. I don't see school children or anyone else who wears a uniform to work, like Tesco, for example as any different

That has just rung a bell from 30 years ago. I used to work for a local paper and covered parish council meetings. On the agenda for one village was the issue of the local postman.

Were they complaining about late deliveries or theft? Perhaps they wanted to praise him for looking out for elderly and other vulnerable residents? No .

He had his own item on the agenda because they didn't like his shorts. After a good 25 minutes they voted to report him to Royal Mail because it didn't create the right tone for the area. Royal Mail wrote back to say that shorts were an acceptable part of their uniform. They debated that at length as well. Good fucking grief.

My view of many people in positions of authority has been formed by years in my 20s at public meetings listening to people in education, local government, central government, various quangos, police, health and the rest of it who waste time obsessing about trivia.

I have met many good people. But they stand out in the morass of people who think a skew-whiff tie on a bus at 4.30pm is proof that we're all going to hell in a handcart.

I went to a grammar school in the 1970s. We had a uniform that I liked because the official blouse chimed with late 70s fashion and you were allowed to wear any jumpers and skirts as long as they were grey. Therefore the teachers got on with teaching rather than enforcing petty rules.

I did very well despite once taking in my skirt so tightly on my mum's sewing machine one Sunday night that I could only move my legs from the knee down on Monday morning.

Most of my teachers were good and I look back at some really outstanding ones who were great educators and also managed to establish a friendly yet professional relationship with their pupils. That is surely the key to being a teacher.

I also recall a few teachers who were bad for a variety of reasons and should have looked for a line of work that didn't bring them into contact with children and young people.

Reading the views of some posters who are teachers makes me glad not to have children at school or to be at school any more.