To think that this teacher should not have told-off a pupil on the bus

[Bookaboo]

Couple of hours after the end of school, a few kids on the bus and a guy who happens to be a teacher at their school.
The teacher stopped one lad , who was probably only in year 7, and started grilling him about why he had no tie on. Told him to see him at break tomorrow for detention, but the kid was on his way home & was doing no harm.
I felt really sorry for the kid & felt like the teacher was just being an asshole.
If that was my son in a few years I wouldn't want him to be treated like that. I know that schools have an image to uphold etc.. but jut couldn't help thinking that stuff like this makes kids feel miserable about going to school.

It's not following kids around on the bus home. The first time I went to view DDs school, I got the bus home afterwards. There was two teachers on the same bus as me. Staff get public transport too.

I'd have hoped they'd be more concerned with the safety of their pupils and members of the public.

@mirime I don't mean to be rude but did you read my post? It was one of their pupils I stopped from being beat up!

To the other PP. Nothing extremely rude about it all. I'm obviously one of those lax parents who lets my child see they have to respect their school as much as they respect me, and trust me, I've experienced some unbelievable shit schools.

Really? So if your sons school had the rules that full school uniform had to be worn the whole way home you would expect a teacher who this is in front of to ignore it? Do you know how hard it is to keep control of a class? Do you realise that you have to pull up all the little things so that they don't push the big stuff? Do you understand how if this teacher hadn't of said anything the kid would have said at school 'well sir saw me without it and didn't say anything' You know nothing about how much this kid likes to push boundaries. He did exactly the right thing. Kid knew he was meant to have uniform on, deserved to be told off, end of.

If jonsnow thinks the teacher wasn't rude then she is probably right as she was there.

IceMagic thanks. I'm not under no illusions. DS is autistic and it took us years to get him diagnosed. The shit some of his teachers said to me you'd never believe me unless you were sat in the meeting room with me. So I do know how some staff can go on power trips, can be ostentatiously rude and in reality should have given up their day jobs at least five years prior. But I have and always will work with teachers and not against them. DSs teacher = rude. DDs teacher = not rude.

I don't think the teacher in this thread was being rude or bossy. Just reminding the kid of the rules. I know it can sometimes be interpreted as a teacher on a power trip but none of us know how that kid is in class, the OP saw a snapshot of it for five minutes. The teacher probably deals with him a few hours a day and knows him weller (is that even a word?) than the OP does.

Why are kids made to wear uniform on the way home from school? Adults who work sometimes get changed for their commute home if they cycle or if it’s raining or even just for comfort. Some will remove their ties or what ever on the bus/train home. Does it affect their in work performance? Do they suddenly become rebels who flout all the rules and disrupt others at work? I highly doubt it.

I’m generally pro uniform but I genuinely don’t get this at all. Forcing kids to wear blazers to and from school in the hotter summer months, making them wear ties on the bus 2 hours after the school day is finished. What does it achieve? Who is going to notice or care that little Johnny stores his blazer in his bag so it doesn’t get caught as he rides his bike to school? I totally get enforcing the tie thing in school, during lessons but I’m not really getting the connection between not wearing a school tie on the bus outside of school hours and behaviour in the classroom.

Imagine if you were on the bus home from work and your boss who happened to catch the same bus home came up to you and reprimanded you for not wearing your tie.

And no I’m not one of ‘those parents’ I will always encourage my dc to abide by school rules, that doesn’t mean I can’t be of the opinion that rules like this are draconian and stupid.

DeleteOrDecay, show me a school where, offered a vote, parents have gone against uniform. I'll save you the bother - there won't be one. Now I think of it, I wonder if any has ever been offered this.

Schools in the UK are caught up in a systems that identifies uniforms with academic success, though there is not the slightest evidence that the one is a cause of the other.

And no I’m not one of ‘those parents’ I will always encourage my dc to abide by school rules, that doesn’t mean I can’t be of the opinion that rules like this are draconian and stupid.

If that's your view, then what do you propose to do about it? You are a parent and have the power. I can assure you that schools take no notice whatsoever of what individual teachers think.

Whilst the kid is wearing partial school uniform his behaviour and appearance reflects on the school.

Our sons school expect them to have shirts tucked in, ties on etc when in uniform irrespective of location.

The idea is that you either get changed completely or wear uniform fully and tidily.

But I can remember being a scruffy toe rag with socks around ankles and tie undone on the way home from school so I also feel a bit sorry for the kid

Forcing kids to wear blazers to and from school in the hotter summer months,

They're not forced to in the summer. Like I say. I'm not elaborating further as may be outing. But DDs school has different codes for summer and winter months. Ie. Blazers are allowed to be taken off in hot weather. Mainly because it is rather difficult to teach 30 children who have passed out from heat exhaustion. In the winter the children can wear boots instead of shoes so they dont all turn up with frostbite I think it's more than a fair exchange. .

The attitude of the teacher would actually put me off my child attending the school.... and I'm a governor... but also sensible on a practical level.

It screams power trip and jobsworth.

I am supportive of teachers and the challenges that they face ... but this just send any attempt to embarrass the poor kid.

@JonSnowsWife I didn't mean the teachers were following them home. Of course I'm aware teachers take public transport. I mean school in all its dreariness was following them home which it didn't when I was at school despite my school being a draconian grammar-wannabe. The strictest teacher in the school used to catch the same bus as me and I'm guessing he too was pleased to be headed home as the only interaction you would get was a cheery 'goodbye!'. Unless you were misbehaving, in which case you'd get a bollocking. Which is fair enough.

If a parent thinks the rule is stupid, that can go elsewhere

Echt, do you have any idea of the realities of school admissions? There are many areas where just going elsewhere simply isn't an option.

There's definitely something about the kids wearing regulation kit and being tidy that has a positive effect on behaviour. I'm sure there have been studies on this.

Schools all over the world do without uniform without any suggestion that it has a detrimental effect on behaviour. I've certainly seen studies that show that being strict about uniform has no effect on academic attainment, which after all is what schools are about: there may be a small immediate lift which is usually the effect of the "new broom" approach with the head chucking out anyone who might affect league table results, but it always goes back to what it was before.

It's just a life lesson and won't do the kid any harm. Yes the teacher was probably being a bit harsh and could have gently reminded the child to put on his tie but no real harm done. The child will meet plenty of this type of person throughout their life and life won't always be fair.

I support the idea that uniform ought to be worn properly in and out of school. There is nothing wrong with upholding standards and it is a valuable life lesson.

If I were this child's parent I would support the teacher & have no problem with it. Teachers ought to be supported when they discipline pupils.

My dd school has a rule that you must not be seen in public without correct uniform, especially when travelling to or from school. Kid was seen by teacher, kid gets into trouble.

For those comparing with employees not being reprimanded for removing a tie on the way home - the difference there is that employers are not deemed responsible for, or judged on, teaching their employees how to behave well, develop attitudes of respect etc.

Comparisons with lack of uniform in other countries are equally irrelevant. All countries I know of which have no uniform still have rules, and those rules must be respected e.g. no baseball caps. The issue is respecting a rule, not what the rule is (obviously, we are not talking about blind obedience to rules which cause great harm to people). Moreover, schools play a very different role in pupils' lives in many other countries: pastoral responsibility is vastly reduced and parents are responsible for ensuring children are fed, provided with school equipment including textbooks and stationery, do their homework etc. Whether everyone likes it or not, the fact is that in the UK schools have a responsibility in these areas.

A few people have said the school's job ends at the school gates. This is wrong (in England + Wales, probably Scotland + NI too but I'm not certain). DfE issue guidance on the school's responsibility beyond the school gates, and Ofsted teams commonly spend time in the area around a school before school starts and when it ends, to observe behaviour and attitude e.g. from 8am outside a secondary which starts at 8.40. Many schools in challenging areas deploy staff to supervise pupils beyond the school gates for e.g. 15 mins before and after school, but there is no rule saying that responsibility ends at a particular time after school ends. If a child goes home at 5 after a school club, for example, expectations are the same as if they'd left at 3.30. For practical purposes, many secondaries (whose pupils are much more likely to be without an adult) use the 'in uniform = representing us = comply with your school's standards of uniform/conduct etc' rule of thumb and pupils know this.

Personally, I dislike a lot of uniforms and a lot of uniform rules, but the overall impact of following these rules - rather than flouting them - is beneficial to the individual (no hassle) and the community (staff not having to nag, reduced friction between staff and pupils, no wasting time talking/reprimanding/ringing home etc etc about uniform instead of other things).

The point of what the teacher did was to uphold high expectations for their students. Some posters being punished for not wearing a tie is ridiculous, but we have an ethos of "starting right". If you can't get the small things right, then the child isn't going to follow more important rules. A good/ outstanding school have clear policies and they never let anything slip. Everyone wants their children to attend good schools, they don't reach that good standard by being lax. If students of a school walked around in their uniform looking messy, it would suggest the school they go to had low standards.
Marginal gains add up to overall success.

That meant to say "some posters think being punished...."

School may have a policy of if wearing uniform it has to be fully complete. Only three weeks ago came across a schòol whose Head teacher actually went out at lunchtime occasionally to check pupils are wearing uniform and behaving in public. Found this out from staff in a tea room when I was amazed at teenagers who came in for baguettes (great quality and value) and drinks of which water seemed to be favoured. Had to mention to staff how amazed I was at appearance, behaviour and manners of these young folk hence I discovered the uniform rule. Have to say the males were much smarter looking than the girls! No it was not a private but local authority secondary. A lot more Head teachers should do the same as the one concerned here.

I disagree that because teachers have a responsibility to manage behaviour in school, it is therefore acceptable for them to interfere out of school hours. Actually, it's my responsibility to teach my children socially acceptable behaviour and since I believe that removing a tie after school is perfectly fine, I would not be supporting a school who tried to insist otherwise.
School rules do not out rank parental responsibility, certainly not outside of the school day and I think some schools forget this and overstep.

I also disagree that schools need so many little rules in order to 'start right'. Perhaps if schools had fewer rules and confined them to things that actually matter, families might be more inclined to respect them.

There is another thread at the moment about parents not respecting the no photography at school events rule. I think this is really important in schools where there are vulnerable dc who need not to be visible on fb. But I also think that some parents really don't get it or respect it because they are so bombarded with pointless rules that the ones which matter are getting lost and written off as just one more thing that schools dictate.

Draconian uniform rules do not equal raised standards/respect. They just make kids view that teachers as power tripping bullies and if anything contribute to lack of respect. That's not the relationship I want my dc to have with their teachers, most of whom seem to be nice people, trying to get the best educational outcomes for my dc.

Most schools it is pretty standard that you wear uniform correctly both in school and out because you are representing the school.

School rules do not out rank parental responsibility, certainly not outside of the school day and I think some schools forget this and overstep

You might feel differently if you were the 80 year old whose wall the kids sit on to eat chips at lunch and then throw the papers in the garden.

Given that it's happening at lunchtime, which is the time when schools do have responsibility for behaviour then the school should not be allowing those pupils to leave the grounds during the school day.

After school, I'd say it was a matter for parents/the police if damage was being caused.

So if they are getting chips on the way home the OAP should call the police? When the only thing they know about the kids is their uniform?

I think it was very rude and invasive of the teacher - but then I think some schools are rude and invasive. lf that's what the policy states then so be it, but I would never send my son to a school like that. He doesn't need much preparation to learn how to wear a tie to work, about 5 minutes should do it - when the time comes! (I also work in a secondary school).

But sashh, they weren't doing it after school, but at lunchtime, when the school could reasonably be expected to nip it in the bud. This is what I mean about schools having too many stupid little rules - if they kick off about lack of a tie but ignore pupils causing disturbance to the public during the school day, then they have their priorities arse about face. And clearly wearing a uniform isn't doing much to affect behaviour positively, so something else needs to be done.

After school, if this is a frequent problem if kids causing damage to someone else's property, I would expect the community police officers to deal with it.