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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

what the jeff is going on in Catalunia?

253 replies

ludothedog · 01/10/2017 08:58

whether the vote is legitimate or not, for goodness sake, is deploying riot police to remove voters/protesters the right way? Terrible, Just terrible.

Can you imagine what would have happened if riot police were deployed to stop the Scottish independence referendum?

Surely by denying the Catalan people the vote all they will do is galvanise support for independence?

OP posts:
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6
LurkingHusband · 01/10/2017 14:17

Lurking - no it's more like believing Nicola Sturgeon when she says people want another referendum.

As a Scot, or and Englishperson ?

Two sides to every coin etc.

FWIW, as someone in England, my only comment on Scottish independence is "whatever they want". I don't really see it's my place to impose anything. They are, after all, their own country.

Mummyoflittledragon · 01/10/2017 14:18

Spain hasn't progressed much since the 70's if this is anything to go by. ETA have recently agreed to down arms for good, which was amazing. And now this .... has the government learnt nothing?

OhYouBadBadKitten · 01/10/2017 14:19

I think people don’t realize how thin the veneer of civilisation is.

Remember Boris and his poxy water cannon purchase.

Peregrina · 01/10/2017 14:21

But that compared to some parts of Europe we are a long-settled island.

I don't think you can really claim that LH. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is less than 100 years old - prior to that it was the UK of GB and Ireland (which people hardly take on board). Scotland was wholly independent until 1707. Wales was conquered in the 13th Century, but still very much retains its own identity. You can claim that England has been settled for about a thousand years.

PricklyBall · 01/10/2017 14:24

I've been aware for the last week of the up-coming referendum and the fact that there was a vote in Madrid to rule it unconstitutional, and the luke-warm response of the EU, so it has been covered in the press here (my sources are usually the Guardian and Telegraph).

It is bloody scary, and as pp have said, so stupid. If Madrid had ignored it (having had the court case to establish it was unconstitutional), it would probably have come out 55% stay, I reckon, like Indyref. And even if it had gone narrowly against, the government could have said "well, it was an unofficial vote, there was already a court judgement, that will have affected turnout, yadda yadaa." To do what they've done just seems terminally stupid.

(BTW, re. comparison with Garibaldi and the unification of Italy, it's not that good a comparison - Catalonia has been part of Spain since the 15th century, so longer than there's been a United Kingdom).

PricklyBall · 01/10/2017 14:24

Ha - cross post with Peregrina.

Peregrina · 01/10/2017 14:25

I think people don’t realize how thin the veneer of civilisation is.

DH said that only a couple of nights ago - about how quickly The Troubles in N Ireland blew up, or the situation in Syria. Except that they didn't - there is usually something brewing for many years, it's just that it gets ignored and doesn't get reported, until the pressure gets too great and the whole thing blows.

LurkingHusband · 01/10/2017 14:26

I don't think you can really claim that LH. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is less than 100 years old - prior to that it was the UK of GB and Ireland (which people hardly take on board). Scotland was wholly independent until 1707. Wales was conquered in the 13th Century, but still very much retains its own identity. You can claim that England has been settled for about a thousand years.

compared to ... OK, maybe as in "compared to a lion, a dog isn't that dangerous" ... even then I would avoid the todger in floury baps whilst shouting "Dinnertime Fido" tactic ...

annandale · 01/10/2017 14:26

I guess I see it differently Lh - that the UK in its current incarnation is relatively recent and that there has been a separatist movement with different phases including underground resistance and repression plus huge parliamentary movements in the 19th c, open civil war, treaty and partition, grumbling violence and hidden repression, popular protest and army response, then intensified terrorist activity during my entire life, followed by political shift and truce in recent years, possibly reanimating with more political change. That simply doesn't feel like a settled situation. I would agree though that if it were Yorkshire or another area of the largest island wanting to secede there would be much more attention paid, and when internment happened in the early 70s we in the UK just didn't react to that in the way that those recently governed by a fascist dictatorship would.

Having said all that - I was vaguely pro Catalonia but if Assington is pro then I will look again.

annandale · 01/10/2017 14:27

Assange not assington

LurkingHusband · 01/10/2017 14:27

(BTW, re. comparison with Garibaldi and the unification of Italy, it's not that good a comparison - Catalonia has been part of Spain since the 15th century, so longer than there's been a United Kingdom).

Thanks .. paying the price for learning from my Dads basque friend I suspect ...

cdtaylornats · 01/10/2017 14:37

Lurking - as a Scot. The SNP has brought nothing but bitterness and division. Failing public services and no policies other than independence.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/10/2017 14:41

Yes quite. So lucky to not have any separatist movements here in Britain, England, the UK or whatever you like

Er, what do you think the whole point of the SNP is?

PoppyPopcorn · 01/10/2017 14:42

Totally afree with cdtaylor - the IndyRef here was three years ago and the country is still split.

A UK parallel would be Sturgeon asking Theresa May for permission to run another IndyRef, and the London government saying no. Then Sturgeon deciding to go ahead with it anyway. Lots of legal battles ensue, Sturgeon ploughs on. Then on the day of the vote, the London government sends in the Army to stop people voting.

It just seems such an unlikely scenario here as we're all so British. Some of the extreme element in the Nationalists are loving what's going on in Spain, it's keeping Nationalism at the top of the political agenda. Several high-profile SNP MSPs and MPs have been out there lending their support to the Catalan nationslists too.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/10/2017 14:45

Sturgeon might press on anyway if she thought she would win but at the moment she would not.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/10/2017 14:49

Actually on reflection she probably would not.

LurkingHusband · 01/10/2017 14:51

A UK parallel would be Sturgeon asking Theresa May for permission to run another IndyRef, and the London government saying no. Then Sturgeon deciding to go ahead with it anyway. Lots of legal battles ensue, Sturgeon ploughs on. Then on the day of the vote, the London government sends in the Army to stop people voting.

Turns out Theresa May can't get enough of elections anyway. Also the UK is committed to enacting the Will Of The People, so no problem there.

LurkingHusband · 01/10/2017 14:53

Lurking - as a Scot. The SNP has brought nothing but bitterness and division. Failing public services and no policies other than independence.

You see, I am not Scottish, and don't live there. But I do know it is a country in it's own right.

Which is why I would defer to you in whatever you (Scotland) decide.

Or would it be better if I decided instead that Scotland should be independent ? Or conversely part of the UK ?

As in 2014, it's not really a question I am equipped to answer.

Peregrina · 01/10/2017 14:58

Also the UK is committed to enacting the Will Of The People, so no problem there.

Ah no, only for the Referendum. As far as the last election is concerned May has carried on as though she got her majority, so the will of the people can't matter too much. People just voted wrong!

Penny4UrThoughts · 01/10/2017 15:08

If you think the public services in Scotland are failing, you should see whats happening in England!

SNP have done their best to protect Scotland from the worst of the cuts. Bedroom tax anyone?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/10/2017 15:12

I don't see why the rest of the UK should not have ad a say in the break up their country. My only fear is they might have said trot off and stop whinging.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/10/2017 15:13

Oh and ha ha about public services in Scotland. Education? Police?

TooManyPaws · 01/10/2017 15:16

Speaking as a Scot with several chronic medical conditions, I'm very grateful to the Scottish government of the SNP for safeguarding the Scottish NHS and providing free prescriptions. As a former Labour Branch Secretary, the Scottish Labour Party has gone to shit since Blair took it rightwards and rule by London instead of the members; Corbyn doesn't even seem to know we have a separate legal system. I was a federalist but the behaviour of the unionist campaign during and after the Referendum drove me into the independence camp. Go Catalonia.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/10/2017 15:22

Oddly as a Labour party member I feel much the same about Corbyn and McConnell. As for behaviour after 2014 I am astonished that you can overlook the arrogance and contempt for No voters displayed by Sturgeon and Salmond and those in the "45" campaign.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/10/2017 15:31

Then on the day of the vote, the London government sends in the Army to stop people voting.

It just seems such an unlikely scenario here as we're all so British.

There were tanks sent to George Square (centre of Glasgow ) in 1919...

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square