Anti-Semitism and the British Left

[bluebeau]

Here they go again. Why does the British Left have such an antisemitism problem?

Labour fringe speaker's Holocaust remarks spark new antisemitism row

A senior Labour MP has said he is shocked at some of the anti-Semitic tweets by party members that come before its disciplinary panel. John Cryer said some of what is written "makes your hair stand up", adding: "This stuff is redolent of the 1930s."

After the Chakrabarti whitewash, I'm not listening to anything Corbyn and the left have to say any more. And don't even get me started on Ken Livingstone. I'll never trust Labour or the left ever again, until they stand up and say, "We allowed anti-semitism to arise within Labour. We just went,'deny, deny, deny' and looked the other way. We were wrong". Then, and only then, will I ever give them the time of day once again.

I doubt it is just coincidental that anti-semitism has only reared its ugly head of late, since Corbyn took over as leader of the Labour party. I'm not saying there was none at all before then, but that was when it got bad. Did you see, a few months back, a Liberal Democrat MP with anti-semitic views started shooting his mouth off? LibDem leader at the time, Tim Farron just turned around and fired him, immediately. That's leadership. Corbyn, on the other hand, has let Labour party anti-semites run riot and basically done nothing. He didn't even deal decisively with Livingstone, who should have been banned from Labour ten times over by now.

Corbyn has damaged forever Labour's reputation as a non-racist party. It took decades to build up that reputation, and just one world class muppet to ruin it.

This thread reads like a Trump rally. Israel? They're fine people. No racism or prejudice or mistreatment of non Jews in Israel, no sir. The Muslims are the real bad guys, and the left. Ok, the right have occasionally done some nasty things, but both sides, you know, both sides are violent. And this thread isn't racist or bigoted, just remember to agree that labour are anti semitic and it's all the Muslims fault.

There is a perfectly respectable school of thought that says extreme viewpoints like Holocaust denial should not be criminalised. That is not at all the same as saying they should be legitimised, or are legitimate. It is about allowing free expression. I give you this editorial from the Jewish Chronicle published in 2015, the last time this was mooted:

In England and Wales, the Public Order Act 1986 criminalises various activities by people who intend to stir up religious hatred. Other offences attract higher penalties if they are religiously aggravated. But it is not an offence to express public approval or denial of the Holocaust.

The distinction is not difficult to understand. We criminalise actions motivated by or aggravated by racial or religious hatred. But we stop short of punishing people for merely publishing palpable nonsense. And that is how it should be. Jailing people for what they say risks creating martyrs.

There are many threats to Jews in this country, as we can see from increased security at our schools and synagogues. But Holocaust denial, as such, can be defeated by evidence. The only people who take crackpots seriously are other crackpots.

Intolerance is subjective. Many traditional Jews found it hard to tolerate the intolerance of women drivers by the Belz Chasidic sect. Some Reform Jews are intolerant of traditional religious practices. And some non-Jews are not willing to tolerate practices observed by all Jewish denominations, such as brit milah. But defeating intolerance is not the task of the criminal law.

Of course, it's unpleasant to come across those who seek to belittle or, more often, to justify the murder of our families. It's equally disturbing to find people in continental Europe who assure you that their compatriots were victims of the Nazis rather than their accomplices. But I'd rather put up with the intolerance of others than lose my right to speak freely, even intolerantly.

The cause of freedom is best served by free speech.

Yes it is possible. But at the same time I believe If you dislike Zionism after 6 million Jews were murdered with no-one to stand up for them and nowhere to go afterwards, that most definitely makes you anti-Semitic

What about Jews who dislike Zionism?

What I think he should have done StatelessPrincess if it was so important to him, is to talk to both sides. Did he?

If you dislike Zionism .... that most definitely makes you anti-Semitic

Does this include the many Jewish people who aren't in favour of Zionism?

Both sides are at fault, but once again, you dont go supporting one side in a protracted conflict. I dont know if you ever brought up any children?

I don't think anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are the same thing.

However, people who see a discussion about anti-semitism and their first response is - "those stupid Jews don't know what they're talking about", really, really need to take a look at themselves.

There is a rise in anti-semitism in the uk, across Europe and in the us- (at the march in Carolina- trumps 'nice guys' they were shouting about Jews) and if you really think the figures are manipulated or Jews are 'over-sensitive' -fuck you.

Cracked Not that I'm aware of. Perhaps he thinks they're the terrorists.
There's are lot more to Zionism than just having a safe place for Jewish people to live, as you well know. Lots of Jews are not Zionists and I've never seen an official definition of anti-Semitism that says ''anyone who is not a Zionist'' which is basically what you're saying.

I'm going with this definition of Zionism. The belief in the right of existence of the State of Israel.

Jews who don't think Israel should be immune to criticism? No, but its a short hop for many who chose to focus purely on the sins of Israel in the ME context, to antisemitism. That was my original point

Also, unless you are Jewish you wouldn't have experienced anti-Semitism. That is like saying a white person saying, "I've never experienced anti-black racism personally

Are you an Arab Muslim? Because you did exactly the same with respect to their experiences in Israel. But I guess that's ok because as mentioned a number of times in this thread the Muslims are the real bad guys.

I think there is a huge difference between detesting the actions of the Israeli government and detesting all Jewish people, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Trump is widely despised by American Jews. He is seen as someone who is a friend to the kkk who listens to fascist groups and neo-nazis.

so the claim that this sounds like a trump rally- very weird.

A Trump rally or a Jeremy Corbyn rally, pretty much indistinguishable.

I've agreed with you that there is a difference. But this thread is after all about Labour under Jeremy Corbyn. Who has associated with some of the most vicious Anti Semites alive today such as : Raed Salah [a delightful chap, Google him up]. Paul Eisen the holocaust denier and
Hamas whose charter is explicitly genocidalagainst all Jews and not only Israel.

All the linguistic mechanisms and dog whistles that Trump employs are here.

Do you have a point you'd like to debate with me or anyone else?

But you still think it's just a ''short hop'' which is I suppose why you think Cobyn is anti-Semitic and I don't. I know who Raed Salah is. Corbyn said he didnt know Eisen was a holocaust denier when he met him and that he wouldn't knowingly associate with someone who was.

I agree Slarti, it's almost laughable.

Yes, everyone here sounds like Donald trump - the friend to white supremacists who says his supporters in Charlottesville screaming anti-Semitic slogans are nice guys.

That's it, exactly.

Corbynwas a long-time backer of an anti-Israel group founded by Eisen,attending its 2013 event even after Eisen had outed himself as a Holocaust denier years earlier. So I'm not having that denial of his...

you still think it's just a ''short hop'' Yes I do and the reason is: that Mr Corbyn as do many on the Left, have a troubling tendency to target Israel in isolation. They keep a remarkably almost obsessively, watchful eye on anything and everything Israel does, whilst simultaneously ignoring the continual, perpetual and far larger murderous, oppressive activities of all non-Jewish states in the region.

Perhaps this is too extreme but I can't for the life of me understand how this man retains a career at the fore-front of UK politics.

How does being a hard-left socialist receive such an easy ride from the press and public of the day? Would he be in the same position if was a hard-right nationalist?

Those images of him giving a speech in front of hammer and sickle flags - replace those with Swastikas and his career is over. Kaput.

What if his best bud and number 2 was secretly filmed pledging his support for the teachings of Mein Kampf rather than Marxism?

Or if instead of claiming property in Kensington should be requisitioned for Grenfall Tower victims, he stated they should be requisitioned from wealthy Jews?

This right-wing Nationalists political career would be over.

Yet his left-wing doppelganger gets paraded and serenaded at Glastonbury, gets constant air-time on the BBC and considers himself on the threshold of Government.

Terrifying!

The belief in the right of existence of the State of Israel.
I think (I hope) most people, in the West at least, believe in Israel's right to exist and can see that after the holocaust and the preceding centuries of oppression and abuse and murder of Jews, that there needs to be at least one country in this world where being Jewish does not mean being at risk and at least one country which will always accept Jewish people needing to flee tyranny. All countries of the world should be safe for all peoples but that's not the world we live in, and given the reality of what has happened to Jewish people over and over and over again throughout the years, given the scale of the Holocaust and the fact that people who could possibly have escaped had nowhere to escape to, I think the existence of Israel is essential.

I also think people can be genuinely concerned by the way the government of the state of Israel operates, can want statehood and better conditions for the people of Palestine and think the Israeli government is guilty of some serious abuses of human rights, can think those who whose lives and families were massively negatively affected by the founding of the modern state of Israel deserve a voice and reparations, can be opposed to settlements, etc, without fundamentally opposing the existence of Israel and certainly without being anti semitic.

I agree bluebeau Its quite extraordinary.

many people have no problem displaying the iconography of Soviet & Maoist Communist regimes that slaughtered what, 100+ million – approx? No one seems to wish to disavow that. Rather its seen as rather cool, edgy and highly virtuous to be seen with them

I think you have hit the nail on the head @BoysofMelody

It seems to me that any criticism of Israel equates to being anti-Semitic. You can be sympathetic to the very real plight of Palestinians without being a hater of Jews.

The Guardian article linked to above clearly states that the speaker was a Jewish non-Labour Party member on a panel at a fringe event not organised by the conference. It also states that more is being done to address any form of discrimination within the party.

If you want to get worried about Holocaust denial look to the insidious rise of the alt-right, who have clear connections to the Trump administration and the Tory party. This incredible piece of research tells you all you need to know: alternativeright.hopenothate.com/