Anti-Semitism and the British Left

[bluebeau]

Here they go again. Why does the British Left have such an antisemitism problem?

Labour fringe speaker's Holocaust remarks spark new antisemitism row

A senior Labour MP has said he is shocked at some of the anti-Semitic tweets by party members that come before its disciplinary panel. John Cryer said some of what is written "makes your hair stand up", adding: "This stuff is redolent of the 1930s."

After the Chakrabarti whitewash, I'm not listening to anything Corbyn and the left have to say any more. And don't even get me started on Ken Livingstone. I'll never trust Labour or the left ever again, until they stand up and say, "We allowed anti-semitism to arise within Labour. We just went,'deny, deny, deny' and looked the other way. We were wrong". Then, and only then, will I ever give them the time of day once again.

I doubt it is just coincidental that anti-semitism has only reared its ugly head of late, since Corbyn took over as leader of the Labour party. I'm not saying there was none at all before then, but that was when it got bad. Did you see, a few months back, a Liberal Democrat MP with anti-semitic views started shooting his mouth off? LibDem leader at the time, Tim Farron just turned around and fired him, immediately. That's leadership. Corbyn, on the other hand, has let Labour party anti-semites run riot and basically done nothing. He didn't even deal decisively with Livingstone, who should have been banned from Labour ten times over by now.

Corbyn has damaged forever Labour's reputation as a non-racist party. It took decades to build up that reputation, and just one world class muppet to ruin it.

The boycott movement is gaining momentum.

It really isn't.

ThatsFunny

Actually it's really not.........Israel is doing very well, that's the thing with having ground-breaking industries....meanwhile in the Palestinian cities...........

This is an interesting thread.
If nothing else, it shows how such incredibly different stories (none of which goes anywhere near doing justice to the situation, because that's the nature of narrative) can be told about the same situation. We're all pretty terrible at seeing each other's positions as soon as we've adopted our own.

That's funny - you didn't answer babamini's question: what do you think would happen if, for example, the Arabs had won the wars of '67 & '73? If the other side had prevailed what would have happened to the Jews, the Christians, the Druze, the lgtq people? Would the Palestinians be living in a democratic society which protected minorities? How do you see the outcome?

RE: this infantile Boycott movement. Why boycott a country that has done and still does so much good in the world?

Israel saves the lives of Muslim Arabs injured in the war in Syria, taking them to its own hospitals and even sending out people to search for then wounded and bring them to safety. Palestinians are treated in Israeli hospitals too, includng hundreds of Palestinan children, many of them given heart operation by 'Save a Child's Heart', an Israeli foundation that brings in children with heart problems from Africa and round the world. In all major disasters (such as Haiti & the Mexico earthquake of a couple of years ago), Israeli organisations bring some of the most important rescue teams and field clinics. Why should a decent person want to boycott such a country?

As the Arab states fall into greater and greater anarchy and failure, Israel is one of the most successful countries in the world, in science, medicine, IT, agriculture and much more. It is alongside the USA and China at the top of the Nasdaq index.

This idiotic BDS campaign has done zero to stop this. In fact, all its done is created thousands more jobless Arabs:

www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/09/03/western-progressives-successfully-prevent-israels-sodastream-from-employing-palestinian-workers/#2c2035d41577

Far better to work with Israel, stop wars and terrorism against it, and learn the lessons it can teach. But that would deny the leftists that delusional 'altruistic' feeling they're so addicted to...

I recommend reading the Danish psychologist Sennels as to why there is so much misunderstanding between East and West..

"The difference in mentality and expectation is clearly stated by the old Indian proverb:

You can walk around softly everywhere by putting on a pair of shoes, or you can demand that the whole Earth becomes covered by soft leather." The first is the person from a Western background, and the second is Muslim. It is a question of locus of control.

"The locus of control is central to our understanding of problems and their solutions between East and West. If we are raised in a culture where we learn that 'I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul,' we will look at ourselves and ask: "…What did I do wrong?" and "…What can I do to change the situation?"

"In societies shaped under Islamic and Qu’ranic influence there are fewer feelings of guilt and thus, more freedom to demand the surroundings to adapt to one's own wishes and desires. It is also a powerful source of victim mentality and leads to endless demands on one's surroundings. In a very concrete way this cultural tendency shows itself as a lack of remorse. The standard answer from violent Muslims (Sennels worked with) was always: "…It is his own fault that I beat him up. He provoked me." Such excuses show that people experience their own reactions as caused by external factors and not by their own emotions, motivation and free will.

"The Western non-Muslim mentality it to depend on and blame one's self, while those from an Muslim background believe a problem is caused by outer circumstances only."

That's funny

The boycott movement has been in existence since 1948. Pepsi, McDonald's etc only came to israel in the 1990s. It's not exactly strengthening, it's far far weaker than it ever was 30 years ago.

This thread heartens me somewhat. It's been really hard seeing people whose opinions I usually respect (being left leaning myself) minimizing the anti Semitism on the left. I'm glad there's enough people who see it for what it is

Chakra many thanks for your post about Sennel's views on the Locus of Control as it relates to muslim mindsets. I've just been reading more of it (here if anyone else is interested www.newenglishreview.org/Nicolai_Sennels/Muslims_and_Westerners%3A__The_Psychological_Differences) and it's absolutely fascinating

I'm surprised he's not been silenced, though ...

Ah yes, the boycott israeli goods and services movement. Annoyingly for those trying to follow it, it involves not having a lot of things.

I would take the piss further but five minutes online will show you the gold standard. If you can find a device that doesn't break the boycott to do that with ..

specialsubject were you referring to this kind of thing, for any organisations who might want to avoid Israeli goods and services?

www.facebook.com/notes/jesus-love-is-so-great/so-you-want-to-boycott-israel-heres-a-list-of-products-and-services-you-need-to-/820698877940154

Hard to imagine many will be prepared to make the necessary sacrifices

The BDS campaign certainly generates a lot of noise, but I am not sure how much economic or political impact it has had since it was launched 12 years ago. There's also the danger that people may interpret it in ways that are of no help to the cause and only attract negative attention, such as the retired Cambridge academic who refused to help a 13-year-old Israeli schoolgirl with her project on horses, or Israeli academics being sacked from the editorial boards of obscure journals.

If nothing else, it shows how such incredibly different stories (none of which goes anywhere near doing justice to the situation, because that's the nature of narrative) can be told about the same situation.

I recommend Sandy Tolan's book The Lemon Tree, which is probably one of the most balanced books I've read on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, based on the history of two families. I also think it's important to try and understand other people's point of view, even if you don't agree with it.

Iphones etc are allowed, but there's no way they're ever going to buy those Avocado's of theirs...

Any viable Palestinian state must, as part of its business plan, be focusing on fostering trade relations with its closest and most successful neighbour, Israel, which is precisely what this idiotically deluded – BDS (blame, distort and slander) movement is against.

Doing as Arafat loved so much to do -- keep the Arab people in a state of perpetual squalor, for your own vile, cynical PR purposes.

Any viable Palestinian state must, as part of its business plan, be focusing on fostering trade relations with its closest and most successful neighbour, Israel

Like these West Bank tech entrepeneurs.

Ive heard of the book Ghosts its on my reading list.

I can recommend Laurent Murawiecz's book 'The Mind of Jihad'

Also for historical work. Broad overview of Middle East history and politics. I recommend the anti-Zionist historian Benny Morris' book 1948 it's the fullest account of the conflict Ive ever read.

Thanks for the link. Will read tomorrow [on work's time]...

Wow, so many responses to the boycott comment. Obviously touched a nerve. I see that israel goes to great lengths and spends a lot of money trying to make bds movement illegal. I wonder why.

A lot of islamophobia coming from those who cry anti semitism. Very revealing.

Whist we are on the subject of how terrible muslims are, shall we talk a little bit about israel's growing extremism problem too?

They seem to want to kick out the christians from the country. Was it last year that there was a protest outside a YMCA at christmas time by jewish extremists wanting to rid their jewish state of christians at christmas. I think the christmas presents was sending the extremist head in a tizzy. The head of the group called for the removal of christians from israel with the inciteful words that "Missionary work must not be given a foothold. Let’s throw the vampires out of our land before they drink our blood again.”

Anybody wants to guess what was done about this? According to a religious rights group in israel "Unfortunately, against this blatant incitement, accompanied by unruly violence, there’s deafening silence by law enforcement.”

A lot of islamophobia coming from those who cry anti semitism. Very revealing.

Very revealing that you say 'cry anti semitism' tbh.

What Islamophobic comments? I don't see any.

I'm sure the Israeli government would prefer there was no BDS movement - no matter how weak it is, the point of it is to harm Israel economically and a healthy economy is normally something a government wants, no?

And you still haven't answered what you imagine would have happened if Israel had lost the defensive wars of '68 and '73. What, for example, would be the position of women in the region, and gay men, and Christians?

Let me find a link....

www.timesofisrael.com/head-of-extremist-jewish-group-calls-christians-blood-sucking-vampires/

There are extremists in every society - finding a few nutters does not negate religious minorities who are citizens having full legal rights in Israel and does not prevent them from engaging with every level of society. One of the Supreme Court justices is a Christian, for example. One of the 3 men murdered by a Palestinian recently was Druze.

Most Israelis are secular and the Orthodox make up a small minority. Of this minority the Ultra Orrhodox are an even smaller minority and of those the extremists you mention ... what's the point in bringing up a few outliers? The Israeli government has been building a case against the group you mentioned, it's not like it's state sanctions, so I don't see your point.

www.timesofisrael.com/police-to-probe-extremist-leader-for-anti-christian-comments/

You say according to a religious rights organization there's been silence on the right-wing extremists. This is not true, the leader of that group has been arrested and the Supreme Court is currently looking at banning them as terrorists.

So bringing up an extremely small group of fringe nutters who have no support in the broader society ... what was the point of this exactly?

I believe the point Lizzie, which isn't antisemitic at all - definitely not. Is that although the modern era has seen the rise of ideologies such as: Wahhabism, Salafism, Deobandism, out of which the Taliban, al-Qaeda and ISIS (who atm are are burning Yazhidi women alive in metal cages for refusing to be their sex slaves). Alongside hundreds of other extremist groups and sub groups. Right across the world resulting in 500 people murdered in Europe since 2014.

That a moral equivalent to that, can be found in a handful of racists, who are pursued and prosecuted by the law, in Israel?