Anti-Semitism and the British Left

[bluebeau]

Here they go again. Why does the British Left have such an antisemitism problem?

Labour fringe speaker's Holocaust remarks spark new antisemitism row

A senior Labour MP has said he is shocked at some of the anti-Semitic tweets by party members that come before its disciplinary panel. John Cryer said some of what is written "makes your hair stand up", adding: "This stuff is redolent of the 1930s."

After the Chakrabarti whitewash, I'm not listening to anything Corbyn and the left have to say any more. And don't even get me started on Ken Livingstone. I'll never trust Labour or the left ever again, until they stand up and say, "We allowed anti-semitism to arise within Labour. We just went,'deny, deny, deny' and looked the other way. We were wrong". Then, and only then, will I ever give them the time of day once again.

I doubt it is just coincidental that anti-semitism has only reared its ugly head of late, since Corbyn took over as leader of the Labour party. I'm not saying there was none at all before then, but that was when it got bad. Did you see, a few months back, a Liberal Democrat MP with anti-semitic views started shooting his mouth off? LibDem leader at the time, Tim Farron just turned around and fired him, immediately. That's leadership. Corbyn, on the other hand, has let Labour party anti-semites run riot and basically done nothing. He didn't even deal decisively with Livingstone, who should have been banned from Labour ten times over by now.

Corbyn has damaged forever Labour's reputation as a non-racist party. It took decades to build up that reputation, and just one world class muppet to ruin it.

In Israel, the official term used For policies that SEPARATE palestinians from Israel is called Hafrada -literal meaning is 'separation'.

A report about comparsons between Apartheid time South Africa and Israel today.

Analysis coordinated by Human Sciences Research Council
In 2009, a study was commissioned and coordinated by the Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa on Israel’s practices in the occupied Palestinian territories under international law.[65]

The report cautioned against focusing exclusively on events within Israel proper and avoiding analysis of Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories.[67] The report noted that one of the most 'notorious' aspects of the Apartheid policy was the 'racial enclave policy' manifested in the Black Homelands called bantustans, and added: "As the apartheid regime in South Africa, Israel justifies these measures under the pretext of 'security'. Contrary to such claims, they are in fact part of an overall regime aimed at preserving demographic superiority of one racial group over the other in certain areas".[68]

According to the report Israel's practices in the occupied Palestinian territories correlate almost entirely with the definition of apartheid as established in Article 2 of the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. Comparison to South African laws and practices by the apartheid regime also found strong correlations with Israeli practices, including violations of international standards for due process (such as illegal detention); discriminatory privileges based on ascribed ethnicity (legally, as Jewish or non-Jewish); draconian enforced ethnic segregation in all parts of life, including by confining groups to ethnic "reserves and ghettoes"; comprehensive restrictions on individual freedoms, such as movement and expression; a dual legal system based on ethno-national identity (Jewish or Palestinian); denationalization (denial of citizenship); and a special system of laws designed selectively to punish any Palestinian resistance to the system.

Initially released as a report, the report was later edited and published in 2012 (by Pluto Press) as Beyond Occupation: Apartheid, Colonialism and International Law in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.[69]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

Considering the presence of several punctuation errors in the opening sentence there – compared to the large tracts of error free text that follows, it would be easy for one more cynical than I to conclude that the writer who started that comment was not the one who made all the subsequent points?

Your providing a cut & pasted agenda (which I didn't read) only confirms my earlier suspicions. You're quite happy to put the Israeli's and their policies under your own personal, morality microscope, whilst Mahmoud Abbas can say things like: "no Jew will be allowed to live in a future Palestine". Refuses time and time again every peace deal he's offered. Refuses to negotiate out of pure greed and antisemitic vileness. Opts time and again for terrorist violence over dialogue. And all that of course is quite acceptable and warrants no examination by you at all?

Whatever Palestinian propagandists and Jew-baiters may say, Israel is not acting illegally and is the only functioning liberal democracy in the ME.

You can rail against that as much as you like and dig up as many biased "studies" as you like. It is unshakeable fact that it's not Israel that fires rockets at primary schools, (although I'm sure you don't get nearly as exercised when Hamas does so). If that ceases, so does Israel's responding in kind.

Egypt have been the only country to be serious about achieving peace with Israel and look what happened. Israel pulled 100% out of the Sinai peninsula to make the peace work and a mutually respectful, advantageous peace has ensued since between the two countries.

If you can't see that Israel wants peace and can only see evil in one of the world's freest, most productive, and tolerant countries, and want instead to see another shariah law theocracy or dictatorship established in its place, where women can be publicly flogged for showing too much hair, then you are to be pitied.

Funnythat

Again - what do you want to see happen. What do you think should happen?

Erm, I have referenced where I c&P'd from and I was posting whilst trying to get my DC to bed, hence the grammatical errors, followed by perfect English which was C&P'd and fully referenced.

I am sure you havent had much difficulty understanding my points up until now. You are however, in serious denial at best or blatantly lying at worst, when you try to claim that ILLEGAL settlements are legal and that there is no apartheid or occupation.

My grammar may have been wrong, Israel's whole moral compass is wrong. I do not know of any other western democracy that punishes a whole nation collectively and has complete disregard for human rights. We in the West, value not only our freedom, but also the freedom of others. Before you and Israel try to align yourselves with the West, try to remember that our democracy in the West is a lot more than just about music, bars and dance.

Funnythat -

so what would your solution be? What do you think would bring a fair, the best outcome?

Bambambini,

I dont care whether its one state or two. I want human rights for Palestinians too. I certainly want the land grab to stop. I also want to see right to return and all previous war crimes punished on both sides. The life of a Israeli jewish child and the life of a Palestinian muslim child hold equal value.

ThatsFunny Nothing further to add - Crackednips has explained exceedingly well, but of course you do not wish to fire the same questions about Hamas/PIJ/Abbas and ask why are they so inhumane to their own people. Why are you not putting Arab actions under your microscope?

I take on board loyalty to your people, but do you really support how ordinary Palestinians are treated as collateral damage by their leadership when they deliberately store their rockets near hospitals and homes. Utterly cynical. There have been times when for WEEKS they have fired into Israel, unremitting bombardment all day and night. Could you live with that level of aggression? They are provoking Israel into sending rockets back, and then ...... call out the Western media .... look, we are under attack by Israel, look what they have done to us, so many casualties, dying people everywhere. They use the Useful Idiots that appear to be everywhere (Press, the UN), and we receive info via our TVs that has been doctored for our consumption.

I'm just suspicious of anyone who can totally blame one side and absolve the other of any wrongdoing.

Chakra, we in the West have free press that tell it how it is in Israel and how it is for Palestinians. For years, Israel was applauded for the shit it meted out to the Palestinians. After all Palestinians were terrorists and Israel were an oppressed oppressor. Then along came social media and then the 2014 killings of hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian children by Israel that shocked the world.

It was a wake up call for the world. We will not forget what Israel did to those hundreds and hundreds of children. We will not let Israel continue to violate the Palestinians human rights and look the other way.

Chakra the point is Israel holds itself out as a modern, western democracy, yet is happy to commit war crimes and exists as an apartheid state and ignores the UN Resolutions it finds unfavourable - such as those concerning the illegal settlements by Israeli-Jewish settlers on the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Saying "yes but Hamas" only works if you are happy to be judged by that standard and treated accordingly. Israel isn't and so it needs to be held accountable for war crimes (as does Hamas/Hezbollah) for firing into civilian settlements, bombing civilians settlements, shooting unarmed Palestinians especially children and the use of white phosphorus on Palestinians. And three things - 1) yes it can "ignore provocation" because that isn't an excuse to return fire on home made rockets with extremely powerful missiles (Israel receives over $1 billion military funding from the USA each year, so this is a massive false equivalence 2) it's a war crime to fire on civilian settlements regardless of whether there are terrorists there - would you accept the USA bombing London, Manchester or Paris because terrorists are there? No? Why not? and 3) Israel created Hamas by repeatedly refusing to engage with the PLA over 30 years ago. Israel has no interest in peace - it wants territory and the Palestinians are an inconvenience at best.

I haven't read the full thread - but it's clear the OP is a complete shit stirrer and if they had bothered to read the links would have noted that the person who made these remarks is not a Labour Party member. When will the Conservatives - whose members repeatedly make racist remarks - Boris anyone? N*gger in the woodpile anyone?! have an inquiry or be held to account in any way at all?

Someone up thread said Jackie Walker was anti-semetic. Absolute rubbish - she is a veteran anti-racism campaigner and Jewish herself, but yes she also has the gall to criticise the actions of Israel so therefore must be anti-Semitic according to some

Bambam,

You asked what I think should happen.

So i said the following:

I dont care whether its one state or two. I want human rights for Palestinians too. I certainly want the land grab to stop. I also want to see right to return and all previous war crimes punished on both sides. The life of a Israeli jewish child and the life of a Palestinian muslim child hold equal value.

What have you found unreasonable and suspicious in that? I said both sides should ve punished for war crimes. Your response is very Netanyahu and Regev. Not surprising.

And it's Corbyn not Corbin. He isn't a bloody wine cellar in the South of France! If you are going to criticise the man at least get his name right.

Ches, now wait for the whataboutery on Israel and wait to be told that anybody who criticises Israel is either anti semitic or a self hating jew

Thats it is almost like criticism of Israel bingo - wonder if we can get a full house?!

Had a full house several times over. I am sure we can get yet another one!

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel

Jackie Walker is Jewish by a rather loose definition. Being Jewish is traditionally matriarchal, though some people accept patrilineal Jews if they were raised in the tradition.

Jackie Walker's mum was not Jewish & she never knew her dad & was not raised with any connection to her Jewish family or Jewish traditions.

Even if she was halachically Jewish it would not give her a pass - I'm not sure why you think it would. She's accused Jews of financing the slave trade, said Holocaust Memorial Day is exclusionary, and said she can't see why Jewish schools need extra security. Clearly she's got a problem with Jews.

lizzie she was filmed without her knowledge or consent during a safe space discussion session - she did not say she couldn't see why Jewish primary schools need extra security, the trainer did and she asked for clarification, as she understood all primary schools in London had extra security.

As for the Holocaust Memorial Day being "exclusionary" she simply remarked that we could remember and commemorate the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust as well. You know - the communists, socialists, trade unionists, gays and lesbians, disabled people, mentally ill and Roma who get forgotten about and who the right don't give a shit about

The Jews financing the slave trade - she said that Jews were involved in the sugar and slave trades. They were - as merchant bankers and (particularly as usury was originally prohibited for Christians) as financiers of the slave trade. So were Christians and many, many British people. Saying that doesn't make me anti-Christian or anti-British. Can you not distinguish acknowledging uncomfortable historical facts from hatred? Jackie has also said that she agrees with David Schneider's definition of anti-semitism i.e hatred of Jewish people because they are Jewish. I have, hopefully managed to include a link to it.

For example: Abraham Alexandre Lindo was a very prominent 19th century Jewish slave trader who owned plantations in Jamaica. Apparently acknowledging this fact makes one anti-Semitic and someone who "has a problem with Jews". Right.

It's almost like there can be no criticism of, nor discussion regarding Jews/Judaism/Israel whatsoever. I had this come up recently when discussing how many Orthodox Jews hold very misogynistic views and how the more orthodox sects of Judaism can be very oppressive of women. You can criticise Islam or Christianity until the cows come home but not Judaism and I think this is explicitly tied up with trying to silence and drown out any and all legitimate criticism of Israel. Don't forget that at one time David Cameron and the Conservatives were trying to make it illegal to boycott Israeli products and to prevent pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

And I don't think I've ever said anywhere that Jackie Walker being Jewish would "give her a pass" to be anti-Semitic. But nice attempt to misconstrue what I wrote and put words in my mouth.

Ches says " 1) yes it can "ignore provocation" because that isn't an excuse to return fire on home made rockets with extremely powerful missiles (Israel receives over $1 billion military funding from the USA each year, so this is a massive false equivalence 2) it's a war crime to fire on civilian settlements regardless of whether there are terrorists there

1.Hamas has hundreds of thousands of $ in its coffers, so their rockets are not homemade. When Arafat left he was a multi-millionaire. The Palestinian leadership are RICH, but they keep their own people in the dirt. Fire power is of the same standard and deadliness as the Israelis. 2. Yes, it is a war crime to fire on civilians, so why does Hamas do it? Weeks of bombs raining down on Israel, which keeps its temper for a long time but to prevent further loss of Israeli life has to at some stage return fire.

Look again at Tue 03-Oct-17 09:25:07 by Crackednips.
“Hamas categorically, repeatedly rejects the two-state-solution. Starts its intafada and Israel justifiably fight back. Hamas goes out of its way to use schools, hospitals, mosques, and apartment blocks for its military command and launch centres, and its own citizens as human shields, guaranteeing its own very high civilian casualties to use as currency. This of course is just another example of the cruelty and dishonesty of the Hamas terrorists.”

This inability to come to agreement has been going on since the late 1960s with previous Palestinian leaders rejecting everything put on the table. They are absolutely crystal clear in that they do not want any Jews in the Middle East – so how can you negotiate around that? It is anathema to them, and they will do everything to drive them out. With that sort of mindset there is only pretend negotiation that drags on for decades. Whatever land grab has been done by Israel is perpetually pointed to as a stumbling block, or some other reason(s), but it is just a distraction.

Abbas and many of his top aides privately identify with the goals of Hizb ut Tahrir, namely the elimination of Israel, but uses these Islamic extremists to depict himself as the good guy versus the bad guys. This is a ploy intended to dupe Westerners into giving him more funds out of fear that the Islamists may take over. Abbas's claim that he seeks a just and comprehensive peace with Israel is refuted by fact after fact on the ground. He gathers in the millions $ and once he retires (to the West of course), the next guy will put the Palestinian people thru the same shit for decades.

Earlier this year there was a meeting of the Arab League. The mtg was conspicuously silent on the plight of Palestinians in Arab lands, because Arab heads of state do not like to be reminded of how badly they treat Palestinians and subject them to apartheid.

Beneath the public Arab support for the Palestinians is a ruthless policy of oppression that is largely ignored by Palestinian leaders, the international community and mainstream Western media.

I think one of the big problems is that so many of us have family histories of being called terrorists too and having cultures banned to justify land grabs etc ( eg Ireland and Scotland). It has not been forgotten at all, we live in terrible fear of them and now we are seeing this absolutely huge collaboration again between those abusive fasciat forces and we are all left wondering what the agenda/extent of collaboration was before. The cynical neo-Nazi types are taking full advantage of Israel’s mistakes but we know full well they they would come after us too like they did in past (calling us race traitors etc). They ran death and slave camps and want to obliterate the existence of those who remember and hold them accountable.

Thatsfunny

you're doing more than criticise israel. Do you have any criticism for Palestinian actions? One might think you're a bit blinkered.

Che
All of these "points" of yours have been answered more than once, by myself, Chakra, Lizzie and others. In my last post [but 3] I appreciate is a long one, but if you try reading it, I think you'll find it quite informative. At the very least, if you read it and do a little thinking (and some Googling if necessary of impartial sources and not leftist ones with an axe to grind) you'll understand where Israel is coming from and you will be able to comment in a rather less one-sided manner.

You are content using the word "apartheid" to describe a nation [that is far from perfect] but is without a single apartheid law? Where Arab and minority muslim minority groups (brutalised and viciously oppressed in other muslim countries). Christians and atheists, etc are full citizens with exactly the same rights as Jews? Frankly, this is embarrassingly naive, ignorant and misguided of you.

The reason why I say that is when you use the word "apartheid" to describe the existence that the 'Palestinians' [displaced Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians] enjoy, you insult those who lived under genuine apartheid, who would have given anything to enjoy the freedoms, rights, privileges and comforts that these "Palestinians", the real land grabbers, currently have to 'endure'. Apartheid state in regards to Israel, is without doubt the most ludicrous of all the, Israel/Jew baiting, sixth form 'ranter's memes. And that's saying something.

Israel receives over $1 billion military funding from the USA
Of course, it's ironic that you bring up money within the context of an Israel-Arab conflict in which the Arabs have bottomless resources thanks to petroleum from despotic regimes and unimaginably wealthy, antisemitic private donors. The PA also receive fortunes, billions in fact, in foreign aid which go toward building underground assault tunnels, building or importing increasingly powerful missiles. which they then fire on innocent civilians. As well as all kinds of other armaments and into private Swiss banks for Mahmoud Abbas and his terror loving acolytes.

would you accept the USA bombing London And I'm making ridiculous false equivalences?

I really don't think you know much about the history here do you?

Firstly: Palestine is not formally recognised as a nation by the UN.

Secondly: Israel's claims to these lands and their possession of them, outdate (1948). The existence of any claims by an independent Palestinian state which only theoretically first came into existence as the result of PLO's declaring indepandence in '64. So the nations possessing the land prior to '48 have subsequently given up any claims. Consequently the oldest claims to that land in existent are those of Israel. So tto summarise then, that means Israel is bombing its own land... Do you see?

Thus asking me my views on London being bombed by the US is a complete and utter Strawman which quite frankly, displays a complete and utter misunderstanding and mischaracterisation of the situation.

My last point for what its worth is this: Hamas is not acting in self-defence as you will probably try to claim: it has started every war with Israel, as have the other Arab states and the Palestinians in general. You need to study some history and get your facts straight before you descend with these inaccuracies.

Now it may be stretching things a bit to say that everyone of the missiles, bulltes mortars etc, fired by Israel in Gaza was at Hamas terrorist weapons facilities, rocket launch sites, arms dumps etc. But I'd bet my life savings that the vast majority were/are. Where as I know for a fact that every single one of those rockets [not to mention the suicide bombs the sniper fire etc] of the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah and the PIJ have been fired with the sole intent of killing as many Israeli citizens as humanly possible . But again I suppose that will just be waved away by yourself as more “whatabouting” on my part won't it?

I must urge you to read some balanced commentary on this subject, or else you're doomed to repeat the same, long since debunked, memes of the Jew bating, far left for ever. Not wishing to be rude here but your whole interpretation of the situation is rather dubious, to say the least.