Anti-Semitism and the British Left

[bluebeau]

Here they go again. Why does the British Left have such an antisemitism problem?

Labour fringe speaker's Holocaust remarks spark new antisemitism row

A senior Labour MP has said he is shocked at some of the anti-Semitic tweets by party members that come before its disciplinary panel. John Cryer said some of what is written "makes your hair stand up", adding: "This stuff is redolent of the 1930s."

After the Chakrabarti whitewash, I'm not listening to anything Corbyn and the left have to say any more. And don't even get me started on Ken Livingstone. I'll never trust Labour or the left ever again, until they stand up and say, "We allowed anti-semitism to arise within Labour. We just went,'deny, deny, deny' and looked the other way. We were wrong". Then, and only then, will I ever give them the time of day once again.

I doubt it is just coincidental that anti-semitism has only reared its ugly head of late, since Corbyn took over as leader of the Labour party. I'm not saying there was none at all before then, but that was when it got bad. Did you see, a few months back, a Liberal Democrat MP with anti-semitic views started shooting his mouth off? LibDem leader at the time, Tim Farron just turned around and fired him, immediately. That's leadership. Corbyn, on the other hand, has let Labour party anti-semites run riot and basically done nothing. He didn't even deal decisively with Livingstone, who should have been banned from Labour ten times over by now.

Corbyn has damaged forever Labour's reputation as a non-racist party. It took decades to build up that reputation, and just one world class muppet to ruin it.

Yes, Cracked I suppose my interpretation of he situation is "dubious" having been out to the Gaza to work as a neutral observer and having witnessed this wonderful largesse that you claim Israel gives the Palestinians. It doesn't - I saw repeated instances of brutality, discrimination and harassment which took place even with neutral observers present. Israel really does not give a shit about the Palestinians. If you had been there you would know and wouldn't continue to defend a frankly undefendable regime. Gaza is essentially now the largest open air prison in the world.

And yes I call it an Apartheid state as do the South Africans who experienced Apartheid do and they should be best placed to know. How can the Palestinians be the real land grabbers when it is their land to begin with? Israel bases its claim on dubious historical claims and nothing more and as I said before it's interesting it will accept the UN when it comes to establishing Israel as a state but not when the UN rules its settlements are illegal. Funny that Israel was offered Uganda as a state in which to settle Jews and rejected it because it was not significant enough geopolitically, but yes historical claim etc.

You cannot seriously compare the resources of the PA and Hamas with those of Israel. That is utterly laughable and frankly invalidates anything further you say. Tell me how shooting unarmed boys throwing stones keeps Israel safe? Or denying Palestinian students/writers and activists visas to study or perform abroad? Or shooting toddlers on a beach? Please do tell.

There is absolutely nothing balanced or nuanced in your post whatsoever and not even a remote acknowledgement that Israel is at fault (not saying that Hamas is innocent either). It's almost as if you are a paid troll to trot out this kind of rubbish. And what was the sole aim of Israel in launching missiles into the Gaza Strip and West Bank if not to kill as many humans as possible? Either they both target enemy combatants on either side or they are both targeting civilian lives, you can't have it one way. I would urge you to get out there and see it for yourself and open your eyes. It will surprise you.

AndCracked Thats has categorically dealt with your point on Apartheid which as far as I can see, you have just ignored.

Ches, seriously? Just a few things -

Paid troll? Really? You're trotting out that ridiculous idea? For the uninitiated, "paid Hasbara troll" is an anti-semetic (yes, that's a thing) cliche that - along with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and that Jews murder children to use their blood in our matzah - anti-Semites use when they encounter pro-Israel supporters.

Uganda?!!! So it's a terrible thing to go to a place with existing indigenous Jews, a place that is the Jews ancestral homeland, a place with around a million Jews in the region. That's a terrible thing, yet you imply they're being unreasonable to reject Uganda - a country they have zero ties and claims to and, er, full of Ugandans (none of whom have recently piled in from Egypt and Jordan).

Loads and loads of South Africans have decried the use of apartheid to describe Israel, probably because Israel has zero apartheid laws and has equal rights for all its citizens.

And that other tired cliche "open-air prison" to describe Gaza. Gaza is self-governing, so in what sense is Hamas keeping its people "in prison"? In the sense that they take the shed-loads of money they receive from the EU, the UN, the Arab League, the US, and ngo's and use it to buy rockets and build terror tunnels rather than put it into infrastructure or to build their economy?

Lizzie it's well known that Israel has paid hackers and commenters to shut down discussion and derail threads which question Isreal's actions, much like what has happened on this thread - where a debate about antisemitism in the British Left has been completely derailed to become a mind numbing repition of how Israel can never be wrong and never does anything remotely bad/ whataboutery and inferences that anyone non-Jewish who questions Israel's actions is either anti-Semitic and if Jewish a self-hating Jew. There is nothing constructive going on here and it has been established that the example given by the OP is neither demonstrative of anti-semitism or of the British left, given that the person who made the remarks isn't actually a member of the Labour Party. But let's not let facts stand in the way hey?

A place that Jews abandoned as a homeland more than 5000 years ago? That was already settled by Palestinian muslims, Christians, arabs etc, who were initially very welcoming of Jewish refugees but who, quite understandably objected to being forced from their land and having their territory seized. And if we are talking of terrorism please elaborate on exactly how the state of Israel came into being and the numerous acts of terrorism including bombing the King David hotel in Jerusalem that were involved.

Not the South Africans who have visited the Est Bank and Gaza and who have no hesitation in discribing it as an Apartheid state. Equality in law is meaningless without equal representation and without those laws being enforced. I really don't understand why you hang so much emphasis on this - women in the UK have equality in law but it would be ridiculous to suggest that no discrimination or violence against them occurs.

In the sense that there is no freedom of movement of goods or people too and from Gaza. Palestinians are denied access to hospitals outside because their own are so ill equipped and unable to stock essential medicines, anaesthetic etc. The power supply and water supply are regularly disrupted and cut off by Israel, food convoys prevented from entering, settlements and farms are destroyed resulting in shortages. You are right - it's wrong to call it a prison, because at least in prison food and water are consistently guaranteed.

And I note that you haven't made any acknowledgement of my points re: Jackie Walker and that it is very clear she is neither an anti-Semite nor has a "problem with Jews" as you put it. Nice attempt at a smear though.

I disagree with you about Jackie Walker - I've said why.

Well known to you, maybe, that supposedly Israel pays people to support it. Do you not hear how bonkers that sounds? Those sneaky Jews aye? I have never once heard that about any other state, so I ask myself "why do people accuse Israel of it?" The usual reason.

Jews did not "abandon" Israel. They were driven out, though many remained and in some areas remained the majority all along.

Tons of food and supplies are delivered to Gaza every week. The people are not starving - if they were then the World Health Organization would not have declared them to have one of the highest rates of obesity in the world. As to medical supplies - as they receive them best ask Hamas, not the next door neighbours, what they do with them and the millions in aid.

And it's disingenuous at best to infer that the only anti-semitism in the Labour Party was one rogue person at the conference. As has been said over and over, there's a stream of incidents and a failure to handle them.

I find the idea that Palestinians and Palestinian politicians have no agency and that white westerners have to rescue them rather racist actually.

Lizzie it's well known that Israel has paid hackers and commenters to shut down discussion and derail threads which question Isreal's actions

Even if that's true (and honest to goodness I seriously, seriously doubt it is!), do you really think the Israeli government cares enough about mumsnet to bother paying people to shut down discussion here? Really? Mumsnet is not that important outside the minds of some of it's users...

Well said Lizzie & sincey. The 'cycle' of violence will continue until Palestinians (the Arab immigrants I refer to) accept Jews have the right to coexist and flourish without the threat of terror. Eliminate terror, and all the other horrors go away. It's really quite simple!

But, the Jew hating, leftist mind (a rather paranoid leftist in this case) is closed on this subject, unfortunately.

Che Calling me a Troll for disputing your view is to resort simply to the lowest form of debate: name-calling. I'm sure you're better than that.

But I'm afraid it renders you unworthy of any further attention.

Lizzie it's well known that Israel has paid hackers and commenters to shut down discussion and derail threads which question Isreal's actions, much like what has happened on this thread - where a debate about antisemitism in the British Left has been completely derailed to become a mind numbing repition of how Israel can never be wrong and never does anything remotely bad

And the you are totally free of bias? I have critism for Israel and would happily see Bibi kicked out, sent to jail if merited- settlements dismantled in the West Bank - to show a determination that Israel is willing to act and compromise for peace.

Do you have any criticism for Palestinian decisions through the years, for their actions? Or do you practice the "Palestinians can never be wrong, do anything bad" that you accuse those who don't have hate for Israel of?

The Labour Party under JC is appalling. He's a useless leader and can't control or lead his party. It's allowed views to rise to the surface which range from the naive to the downright evil and dangerous. People seem to want to believe the promises Jc makes that they are willing to ignore the danger Labour would put the. Country in. The worship of JC has blinded so many people, it's almost cult like. I'm a real swing voter but no way on earth would I ever vote for this evil lot and move realise an Orwellian nightmare

Agreed, he's a complete disgrace. An immoral, terrorist enabling, lying hypocrite. I'm not a fan...

An immoral, terrorist enabling, lying hypocrite. I'm not a fan...

I can say the same for Israel.

50 years of oppression and where are we today?

Nobody is falling for the 'isreal is a western democracy' line. Europe is appalled by Isreali 'democracy'.

Yes isreal does apply laws designed to oppress Palestinians and goes through courts seeking permission to make Palestinian life hell.

Collective punishment is legal
demolition of Palestinian homes is legal
Land grab is legal. What'd you know, you can even appeal in the courts before isreal kicks you out. But then, you lose and your land is stolen - all legally of course.
Detention of Palestinian children and interrogation is legal.
Cutting off water supply for Palestinians is legal.
If Palestinians generate electricity for their village that Israel never put on the grid, then the army confiscated their solar panel. All with legal orders.
Shooting Palestinian kids is also legal - there is always a great reason for it too.

This is the isreali democracy 'that' likes to align itself with the west.

Yes, shooting Palestinian kids is awful, settlement expansion is awful - as is sending rocket after rocket into Israel and choosing to spend aid money on tunnels and those rockets instead of your people.

I do wonder what the outcome would have been if Palestinians and neighbours had gotten the upper hand in the different attacks waged in the hope of wiping the israelis out.

Your hatred for Israel is loud and clear, though understandable if you are Palestinian.

It hasn't taken long for our SJWs on here to start shouting 'troll', and this shows quite well the inability to debate and to accept that others have formed an opinion based on 45+ years of intransigence by the various leaders of the Palestinians.

In Jan Moir's piece about Millenials she says: "Like meercats, they move around together in self-sufficient little gangs, sharing the same acceptable Leftist opinions, uninterested and unable to communicate emotionally with the world outside." I would add they are crippled with a one-lane, crippling naivety and see only black & white. In fact, they want a simple Good-Bad for everything, and that is not so.

I was probably like that as well in my 20s, but having refugee parents I also knew that all nations are guilty of heinous crimes, but I also had the ability to not suppress inconvenient truths because they did not fit my notion of who was right/who was wrong.

There is no such country as Palestine, and it was never a sovereign power but merely a geographical area. They are not a distinct people.

Much is heard about the 'plight of the Palestinians' but there has never been a country of Palestine. It was once an autonomous entity ruled alternately by Rome, Islamic and Christian crusaders, the Ottoman Empire and then the British. But Jewish historical association with the land of Israel can be traced over 4,000 years.

Was Palestine ever recognised as an entity by another country? If so what was its language, its religion, its currency? What caused its demise?

In fact, Samaria, Gaza and the Golan Heights belong to Israel.

The so called "Palestinians" are in fact Arabs comprised of all the various Arab Tribes/Nations reflected in the 23 or so current Arab countries, most of whom were created after WWI. Indeed most of these "Palestinians" came en mass after the British received the Palestine Mandate administration until the Jews were able to rule themselves.

What kind of state would Palestine actually be: a theocracy, a caliphate, a military or communist dictatorship? It would be a godawful repressive, regressive Islamic dictatorship. This clamouring for statehood is a political movement geared to destroy the one and only tiny and democratic Jewish State; the jihadist dream is to create yet another radical Islamic state. And what appalls me is that there are enough Useful Idiots to support the formation of another radical Islamic country.

Perhaps our historians Thats and Che can elaborate.

I have no brief for Israel, but I'm not such a sucker that I cannot see how wrong and cunning it is for PLO/Hamas et al to keep on shouting for peace but never sign anything. The UN must know that radicalised so-called Palestinians will not co-exist with any Infidel - and the biggest Infidel to them are Jews.

(It is said that there could hv been peace if PM Rabin had not been assassinated 20 yrs ago, but I have no view on that). Needless to say it is the likes of communists Miliband and Corbyn who want Palestine recognised as a country. Totalitarianism is the name of their game, regardless of whether it is dogma-based or faith-based.

What we'd have bambam, if the Hamas terrorists and co, (and their useful idiot friends on the Western left) get their way, (which they never will), is, the total annihilation of the Middle East's only liberal democracy - Israel. And the genocide of its people.. The nation that's done far more for mankind than all the Muslim states put together. Israeli aid teams, Israeli medicine, Israeli irrigation techniques, Israeli water conservation, Israeli science and technology have changed lives in Africa, India, China, and all round the world. Unlike the Musilm states, (including the oil-rich ones), who haven't come within a million miles of such benefits for mankind. They just build palaces, buy yachts, property in the worlds biggest cities. And fund terrorist groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, and ISIS.

Then we'd get Palestine. I wonder what that would look like? I'll take a wild guess that we'd see the establishment of yet another Appallingly backward Shariah law ruled, Islamic theocracy or brutal military dictatorship. The first thing that would happen is the ban on homosexuality, freedom of religion and all other humanistic and intellectual freedoms. The region would once again see blasphemy laws, stonings, floggings, beheadings, amputations, child marriage, FGM, death to apostates etc.. The sects would divide and they'd sink into some (we're more muslim than you) type of endless civil war with each other. Shai Iran backing one side - the Saudi's the other. Atrocities a plenty, endless refugees, an hopelessly weak economy, addicted to foreign aid. Let's just ponder this for a moment. The Western left incl' Mr Corbyn's Labour party, would love to see this happen, rather than for Israel to exist! Fascinating really isn't it? But they're not antisemitic, definitely not.

Israel pulled out lock, stock and barrel from Gaza in 2005 in order to give 'Palestinians' their land, and its reward? Many thousands of rockets launched at Israeli suburban houses, schools even Kindergartens and a huge increase in bombings and general terrorist activity. It pulled out of southern Lebanon only for it to be taken over by the horrifyingly brutal terrorist outfit, Hezbollah, now one of the biggest armed forces in the region. Simply because for Hamas, Hez' and co -- the Jews must die.

Israel was prepared to establish a two state solution in 1947. This of course, wasn't acceptable to the Arabs and after 3 wars, and endless terrorism, the declaration of the intent to wipe Jews of the map of Palestine. So on it goes...Yet Israel must not do what it can to defend itself? If a two state solution is to become a reality the behaviour of the Arab World must change! As anyone with a brain knows..

A member of the RoP has just rammed pedestrians this afternoon outside the Natural History Museum in London. They've really taken to this method because (i) it's cheap, (ii) not much preparation or involvement of others required and (iii) large number of casualties can be expected.

Are you posting on the right thread Chakra?

I can say the same for Israel

Israel isn't a person. glad you can spell it correctly sometimes

Lizzie it's well known that Israel has paid hackers and commenters to shut down discussion and derail threads which question Isreal's actions

Well known you say.

Any actual proof of these allegations then from credible sources?

Troll hunting contravenes MN guidelines.
Thatsfunny, you appear not to have posted on any threads apart from this one and no-one is accusing you of being a pro-Palestinian troll.

I certainly agree that the current state of affairs can't continue. Ruling over four million people is in no-one's best interests, least of all Israel's. This open letter, written during the Gaza war of 2014, is well worth a read.

Ghosts, I change my username a lot, but I assure you that I do post on other rights abuses too.

That letter is spot on.

I would happily back their cause. My objection is definitely not against the jews, it is against those Israelis and those nonA-israelis who want to maintain the status quo.
Indeed the left wing Israelis are despised by so many of those who lean more to tge right, it is shocking at how aggressive they can get against the left.

I think Haaretz does a great job too as does b'tselem.

The open letter talks about israelis thinking everyone wants to kill them. That is a very important point. It seems that israelis go through the educational system being taught that everybody is out to kill them and this has affected the collective psyche so much, that they actually believe it. I also believe that this is done intentionally to maintain the status quo. After all, if israelis realised that they don't have to fear the occupied people and the occupied palestinians are human too, then their knesset woukd not be able to continue the oppression of the Palestinians and the land grab without being held to account.

Thatsfunny -

what do you think would have happened to the Israelis if the Palestinians had gotten the upper hand? You talk about what seems to be Israel inbuilt paranoia - yes that does exist - but I wonder why. Your disengenious reference to this- fools no one- I hope.

Bambam, you just carry on supporting the oppression. You can try all you like, the days of the occupation will soon be over. Palestinians will be free. The boycott movement is gaining momentum.