Anti-Semitism and the British Left

[bluebeau]

Here they go again. Why does the British Left have such an antisemitism problem?

Labour fringe speaker's Holocaust remarks spark new antisemitism row

A senior Labour MP has said he is shocked at some of the anti-Semitic tweets by party members that come before its disciplinary panel. John Cryer said some of what is written "makes your hair stand up", adding: "This stuff is redolent of the 1930s."

After the Chakrabarti whitewash, I'm not listening to anything Corbyn and the left have to say any more. And don't even get me started on Ken Livingstone. I'll never trust Labour or the left ever again, until they stand up and say, "We allowed anti-semitism to arise within Labour. We just went,'deny, deny, deny' and looked the other way. We were wrong". Then, and only then, will I ever give them the time of day once again.

I doubt it is just coincidental that anti-semitism has only reared its ugly head of late, since Corbyn took over as leader of the Labour party. I'm not saying there was none at all before then, but that was when it got bad. Did you see, a few months back, a Liberal Democrat MP with anti-semitic views started shooting his mouth off? LibDem leader at the time, Tim Farron just turned around and fired him, immediately. That's leadership. Corbyn, on the other hand, has let Labour party anti-semites run riot and basically done nothing. He didn't even deal decisively with Livingstone, who should have been banned from Labour ten times over by now.

Corbyn has damaged forever Labour's reputation as a non-racist party. It took decades to build up that reputation, and just one world class muppet to ruin it.

Bambambini, Actually cheese's perspective was quite informative and she called you out for your othering. Kudos to her for standing up for 'others' rights and not just her own. Something that is very much the antithesis of Israel and its apologists.

I think Cheeses perspective and passive aggressive point scoring is a bit stupid tbh. As is yours in your simplustic self righteousness.

I think cheese's analysis of your othering was spot on.

According to Human Rights Watch:

Fifty years after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it controls these areas through repression , institutionalized discrimination, and systematic abuses of the Palestinian population’s rights

At least five categories of major violations of international human rights law and humanitarian law characterize the occupation:
unlawful killings;
forced displacement;
abusive detention;
the closure of the Gaza Strip and other unjustified restrictions on movement;
and the development of settlements, along with the accompanying discriminatory policies that disadvantage Palestinians.

Nearly every single Palestinian has experienced human rights violation by Israel.

Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch stated that “Israel today maintains an entrenched system of institutionalized discrimination against Palestinians in the occupied territory – repression that extends far beyond any security rationale.”

www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses

Chakra Ha! I said triggered, but I meant unhinged and absurd.

You know how this is a thread about Anti Semitism in the Labour Left? Well I see more frankly ridiculous bile from Muslim hating loons, than any real Anti Semitism.

This thread escalated!

ThatsFunny, thanks for the backup and links!

Bambini you said "Cheese - go ahead and twist my words. They support Palestine but HATE Israel. There is no middle ground for some of them, no shades of grey or acknowledging some right or wrong on both sides. They damage Palestinians by telling them they are completely in the right, completely the victims of an evil oppressor, encouraging Palestinians to fight on - whilst sitting in the UK watching the X Factor with a cup of tea or arguing the rights and wrongs down the pub "

And you don't expect people to respond to that bile? Was this wine talking?

This is what I keep seeing, nasty, vile hate speech.

You did twist my words - don't be coy. But that's what you do. I've seem many posts on mn show total hate for evil israel and total absence of any criticism for victim Palestinians - that's it situation in a nutshell. This doesn't help Palestinians. And now you have the awful current situation with Bibi running the show and each side becoming more and more entrenched. And the Israelis will still have the upper hand and the Palestinians the shit one. But keep pushing the Israelis to be more entrenched and hardline and pushing the Palestinians into their victimhood with no burden of responsibility for a whole range of choices spanning 60 odd years or so.

So much victim blaming bambini.

Let me see if I can find some amnesty links later.

Yes you do that.

That's what you do!?! Oh my, your words are written down, by you.

When you say that's what YOU do, do you mean me as a Jew, or as a leftie, or me as someone who has sympathy for Palestine and doesn't think the state of Israel is blameless. Which "you"? Given that we don't know each other.

We can read what you think of "they".

RE: the people who seem to think that mentioning Trump / Daily Mail, You're all Racists etc, You're simply trying to silence others by trying to claim some kind of "moral high ground". This tactic is about as effective and convincing now, as it was when it was first employed a few days ago. You're far more likely to change people's minds with intelligent, mutually respectful debate.

RE: Ethiopians in Israel. Yes there are internal problems with Israeli society, which isn't perfect by any means. But would an Apartheid/Racist state [as some highly deluded individual was asserting up thread] have, [between 1984-'91] encouraged tens of thousands of Ethiopian Jews [current pop 135,000] and financially aided them in their immigration to Israel, as the Israeli gov' did? Does that sound like the actions of an apartheid state to anyone?

I really dont want to go down the bottomless pit of who is entitled to the land. Old testament promises etc. I will say this though Israel has consistently and persistently proved it wants peace with the Arabs. In 2000 it promised 98% of Palestinian demands. If anyone reading has ever negotiated a business contract they'll know that 98% or thereabouts is not just fair, it's incredible. But from this offer Arafat walked away. A later offer was of more --
about 100%. The Palestinians walked away from that too. I could say much more. Arafat is dead of course and good riddance but nothing has changed under Abbas.

Israel is making the lives of ALL palestinians, including the christians, equally shit

Hamas categorically, repeatedly rejects the two-state-solution. Starts its intafada and Israel justifiably fight back. Hamas goes out of its way to use schools, hospitals, mosques, and apartment blocks for its military command and launch centres, and its own citizens as human shields, guaranteeing its own very high civilian casualties to use as currency. The anti Israel lobby views this as some kind of heroic sacrifice made out of a primal, desperate call for help. This of course is just another example of the cruelty and dishonesty of the Hamas terrorists. Using their own citizens this way. But it has a lot of traction particularly with the Western left.

This idea of the Palestinians as a saintly people without agency of their own, as eternally downtrodden victims of a big evil Israeli war machine is pure antisemitic fantasy. They have cruel, stubborn leaders, hardline religious organisations and individuals leading them. Theses people carry 90% or more of the responsibility for the plight of the Palestinians. They were given a state in 1922 and still have it. They were given a second state in '47, but turned that down because, being spoiled children, they wanted everything. The Jews were given their state and then went on to create a highly successful, democratic country, a country whose difference from the nihilistic, shariah law led Arab states around them could not be more obvious. Why not put the blame where it really lies?

being spoiled children

Is this an example of that mutually respectful debate you were espousing, nips?

the people who seem to think that mentioning Trump / Daily Mail, You're all Racists etc, You're simply trying to silence others by trying to claim some kind of "moral high ground

Maybe.

But on a serious note...are the Knights Templar involved in this somehow? Like maybe with the left-wing anti-Israel campus movement?

You twisted my words. When i said "they" i referred to those who can only spout Palestine is good, israel is evil - the end. There are plenty of those about. Often hippocrits.

I think what I understand from this thread is Arab/Islam/Muslim is bad and let's support Israel in fighting them. If you don't then you are a Jew hater.

What specifically has given you that understanding eyelashes. ?

Just as I don't presume to negate the experiences of black people or muslims when they talk about overt prejudice, I wouldn't do so to jewish folk either

So you're saying these claims are not up for debate, they are to be accepted as fact, and that to question them is... what... bigoted?

Whether questioning a claim is bigoted or not appears - at least on MN - to depend on whose claim it is. So often we see howls of outrage should anyone dare to challenge the Israel bad / Palestine good narrative, which seems a shame to many who believe the situation to be more nuanced

Among countless other "nuances", one which has been repeatedly outlined here is the constant refusal of Palestine to accept any of the settlements offered. I wonder if anyone's going to comment on that?

cheese You know how this is a thread about Anti Semitism in the Labour Left? Well frankly I see more ridiculous bile from Western democracy- hating loons. And yet they flock here, to the awful oppressive West!

If anyone reading has ever negotiated a business contract they'll know that 98% or thereabouts is not just fair, it's incredible. But from this offer Arafat walked away. A later offer was of more
about 100%. The Palestinians walked away from that too

This is my understand too, crackednips. To be offered everything they ask for and to decline in shows that they never ever had any intention of co-existing with Israel. Why? They have told the world many times, but we don't want to believe that it is true. They have told us that they will NEVER accept the State of Israel anywhere in the ME, and they seek the destruction of it. Their faith precludes them from cooperating with Jews, who are seen as the ultimate enemy, so they are stuck in their own dogma.

In the meantime, since the 70s, they have received millions in public and donation monies, and money from the UN's various departments. Arafat and those who came after him have become fat & rich on free, unearned money. The biggest enemy of Palestine are its leaders.

The Arab heads of state and monarchs do not like to be reminded of how badly they treat Palestinians and subject them to discriminatory and apartheid laws.

It is not comfortable or safe to be a Palestinian in an Arab country. Scenes of lawlessness and anarchy inside Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank have also driven many residents to move to nearby cities and villages. Most refugees in the West Bank no longer live inside UNRWA-run camps.

What has the the Palestinian (non)leadership done to help its people in the Arab countries? Nothing. No Palestinian leader will urge an emergency session of the UN Security Council to expose the ethnic cleansing and killing of Palestinians in Arab countries. No Palestinian leader will demand that the international media and human rights organisations investigate the atrocities perpetrated by Arabs on their Palestinian brethren.

Palestinians living in refugee camps in the Arab world are facing ethnic cleansing, displacement, and death -- but their leaders in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are too busy tearing each other to pieces to notice or even, apparently, care much.

I suspect that Palestine leaders are also temperamentally unable to negotiate, but mostly I think it's even more simple than that: they do not want to be seen coming to an agreement with Israel because other Arab nations might see it as a betrayal of the whole ME.

there is no way I would vote for such a viciously racist party as Labour now. Some of the things coming out wouldn't look out of place in 1930s Germany.

eh???? please show some evidence for this ridiculous assertion! I don't see any sign of anti-semitism against any British Jews.

How do you explain the Jewish Labour movement? Don't think there would've been a Jewish Nazi movement, would there. Please don't be so ridiculous

Their faith precludes them from cooperating with Jews

Sadly I think this is correct. At the heart of this is the sharia law principle that no territory, once conquered for Islam must ever be allowed to pass out of Muslim hands. In that context, it's clear that the Palestinians have been negotiating (mostly not negotiating) in bad faith. They deserve a state when they eschew violence, but not at the expense of the Jewish people or anyone else including those that 'aren't muslim enough'...