about those on the autistic spectrum in mainstream schools?

[OverbearingHouseSitter]

Basically I've read so many threads recently about those on the autistic spectrum being completely let down by teachers and senior staff in schools.

I mean punishing those on the autistic spectrum in incidents when it is entirely inappropriate, and the lack of understanding of some teachers that you cannot use the same behaviour strategies on some children who require a different approach due to SEN.

And then there are times when punishment should not be given at all, such as when a child who is on the autistic spectrum behaving in a way that the teacher doesn't like, yet the teacher not seeming to realise that this behaviour is part of their SEN!

My mother was a teacher and I realise how hard being a teacher is. She got signed off sick with stress... it's a bloody hard job. But AIBU to think that some teachers and school staff- NOT all- seem to be consistently failing those on the autistic spectrum and those with other SEN, whatever these may be?

This is not just from this forum either! There have been instances from people I know I've heard about and with friends kids.

For example, a friends child was recently punished as he did not understand something the teacher said, ie, it was some form of light sarcasm the teacher used, friends DS with SEN did not register this, did what the teacher told the pupils sarcastically not to do and was then mortified and confused when the teacher punished him.

So AIBU?

I also apologise if I have used an language around people with special needs that you do not like/prefer not to use. My friend prefers the term "on the autistic spectrum" opposed to "autistic child" but if I have said anything wrong please tell me!

My son was in mainstream for a few years before (after a battle because it is expensive) moving to specialist asd provision.
The biggest problem I had in mainstream was not with staff not knowing (that is understandable) but with some staff not listening and not treating parents as anything approaching equals. I am not talking about how the classroom was run but about reasons for my son's behaviour and about things that were likely to trigger problem behaviour.

I question diagnoses because it is my job. No it isn't. If you have a diagnosis from a professional, it's not your job to question it, it's your job to ensure there are measures in place to enable the pupil in question to reach potential.

Out of interest, was your last paragraph written appallingly simply to goad me into correcting it?
You're a head teacher or in sixth form, which is it?

viva you come across as an arrogant bully tbh. Not sure if that is your intention.
Parents with DC with any Additional Needs are fighting the systems from the off.
My DS is finally in a Primary Support Unit but the last few years have been hellish for all of us.
One of my final straws came after the school sent the LA Family Support Worker round to our house after I repeatedly asked the Senco for assistance.
FSW stayed 20 minutes and wrote in her report that in her professional opinion there were no autism issues as DS made eye contact with her and he simply needed better boundaries. How the fuck do people get so arrogant that they think they know better than the TEAMS of PROFFESSIONALS who diagnose SN !
I took DS out of school to Home Ed him at that point.
Trust me, I , like many other parents and carers have a whole file of incidents like the one I outlined above.
OP, you sound totally switched on and rather fab.

This is where a class size of 30 just doesn't work. It's absurd that we've accepted it. Any child with SEN or even just a challenging one can't possibly get what they need from a teacher stretched that thin.

DS experience was Infants : fine. Juniors: absolutely rubbish. Secondary : really good. Two SENCos (one after the other, not simultaneous) who made sure the staff were trained. They had a lot of students with autism. FE College: what a let down. Big wide world...like a roller coaster.

Let Viva post. She is vindicating every parent who has had the misfortune of dealing with ineffective education staff and proving the OP's point.

HoofWankingSpangleCunt

Why do I think I know better?

I wouldn't say I always do.

I'd say sometimes have a different opinion as opposed to always think I know better. The reason? I'm an unbiased professional who is head of a large team. Head of a large team of TRAINED (post grad) PROFESSIONALS.

Sometimes in life, people won't agree with you. Not everyone who agrees with you is a consummate professional and anyone who dares have a differing view is an arrogant arsehole.

HTH

Gilead

Nope. Never my job to unquestioningly take anyone's opinion as fact; despite what you wish to happen. Besides which, there are very different inclusion / exclusion laws which govern independent schools . The only reason we have a strong AEN department is because I feel inclusive education (within limits) is a good thing for all involved. It is financially illogical and has caused difficulties amongst other parents who aren't for inclusive education but I soldier on despite apparently being the bad person in your eyes.

Do tell me, have you ever worked with these children in a classroom setting or do you simply criticise from afar?

Did I just read that "Autism is over diagnosed " ?

Ahahaha ! 😂

Lots of people are trained professionals, doesn't mean they know everything about every profession.
I lost respect for every teacher who felt their profession allowed them to make a judgement on my son's autism, because identifying and diagnosing autism isn't their profession.

Oooh viva patronising too.
And I was clearly referring to TEAMS OF PROFESSIONALS who work in diagnosing SN. You may be a professional something but clearly you're not in that sector.
And I agree with the PP who said let Viva post. Viva is a gift to this thread as others can see perfectly the problems people are up against .
Thanks viva for illustrating so well the sort of patronising rubbish we get day in day out

Dh and I weep when we remember that happy, well behaved, high attaining seven year old whose future looked rosy and see now that unkempt, depressed fourteen year old unlikely to get any academic qualifications or live independently.

Who to blame - us, the education system, the NHS, social care - probably all of us. We urgently need to work out how to support children better with an ASC so that more children do not end up like ds2.

Viva you might be a trained professional in education but that doesn't make you a trained professional in all areas of medicine or child disorders.

It is absolutely not your job to challenge professionals who are specialists in other areas. Do you also question if a child actually needs to be in a wheelchair or is really blind or actually has cancer so that you can do your job properly?

The diagnostic process is very lengthy and many parents fight for years before getting anywhere with their child's mental health being further bashed.

Please don't be a person who adds to that fight.

PurplePickledPlums "This is where a class size of 30 just doesn't work. It's absurd that we've accepted it. Any child with SEN or even just a challenging one can't possibly get what they need from a teacher stretched that thin."

Totally agree.

Apparently, research says that class size has no impact on outcome. I find that boggling, frankly. Special schools have small class sizes and high adult:child ratios. The idea that a 'good' teacher can replicate that in a mainstream class of 30, with ever-decreasing numbers of adult support is just ... actually, I really think it's scandalous. Really.

Oneineight the teen years are difficult, it does get better. Feel free to pm if you need to have a moan, shout, cry...
Viva, I stated quite clearly what I do in my first post on this thread. I also have three children on the spectrum, they are adults now. I am therefore well aware of limitations, regulations and general failures in the education system.

The problem with your approach viva is that if disabled children have to prove they are disabled to every teacher/ta/person they meet before that individual will accept their diagnosis they are going to have to spend enormous amounts of time with their disabilities unrecognised and unsupported, being "assessed" by unqualified uneducated sometimes bloody unhelpful people.

Yes, and this is exactly why I'm too scared to attempt mainstream school for ds again.

Exactly what zzz has said above.
The only result of a situation like that is ten different members of teaching staff with ten different beliefs and approaches.
How on earth that is beneficial to a child I don't know.

Yy to zzzz
My DC has enough to deal with as it is.

I question diagnoses because it is my job

Errr, I'm pretty sure it's not. But if you think you're more experienced and qualified than the teams who diagnose there's not much to say to that really other than

The adversarial tone of this thread is interesting. As the group's represented on this thread, parents and teachers/ Head teachers are both affected by government spending priorities in Education. The real enemy is the policies and priorities of the elected government and the limitations of the economy if funding and resources were no object there would probably be better relationships between teaching staff and parents.

I have to take issue with Viva stating that due to years of experience and Qualifications she is able to question a Paediatricians diagnosis of ASD is it only Autism that you question or do you have a second opinion on all diagnoses that may require intervention at school?

I have had two children diagnosed with Autism, dd1 was in yr4 and her class teacher raised several serious issues with dd attitude and general sadness at school at parents evening which was an unpleasant surprise, but she went on to write a helpful statement to support our request for referral we thought d's might be dyspraxic as I am. We were surprised to be given a diagnosis of Autism (until I read about girls on the spectrum and understood). We would not be impressed to have a teacher or Head question this diagnosis. It has not lead to any pots of gold, it simply explains our girl to us so we alter our perception/ expectations and give her the understanding she needs. She has very light touch help at school, attends social skills group and uses a TA supported area of the school for break time and lunch instead of milling around alone and uncertain. Autism is not really a behavioural or learning difficulty in its own, it is social and if you can create the right conditions to keep the child feeling safe and supported that can alleviate the anxiety that often results in unwanted behaviour. There is also a child with their own personality and environmental factors as to consider so what works for my dd is wrong for my ds.

Ds is in yr 9 and was diagnosed in yr 7 again with support from his school. He is classic "little professor", aspergers type. Highly intelligent, very anxious which can look arrogant, inflexible, huge sensory issues and he has no real understanding of hierarchy which can be trying for teachers as he will question things they say if he thinks/ knows they are incorrect. Fortunately he is very polite and well behaved as the very thought of detention terrifies him.

We have generally found their schools to be supportive as long as our children are not costing them too much. I can well believe the opposition experienced by parents who "want more".

I find Viva's views extremely insulting. Her arrogance is shocking and similar to many of those I have come across.

Who do you think knows a child best?
Senco?
Teacher?
Mum?

The Sencop says :Section 1.1
must have regard to:
• the views, wishes and feelings of the child or young person, and the child’s parents.

I think its rare for anyone to know a SN child better than their parent.

The biggest problem I had in mainstream was not with staff not knowing (that is understandable) but with some staff not listening and not treating parents as anything approaching equals. I am not talking about how the classroom was run but about reasons for my son's behaviour and about things that were likely to trigger problem behaviour.

This. In spades.

DD's teacher diagnosed her with 'definitely' ADHD and probably FASD (from birth mum, not me!). Plus I needed to go on parenting skills training. Plus she will never cope academically in mainstream. This was despite me letting them know about her background of trauma, and giving her some materials prepared for teachers about the impact of this on classroom behaviour, and giving teachers some strategies to manage.

Various psych assessments have shown she doesn't have ADHD and academically is well within the 'average' range. As recently as February this year (3 years on) I was still being told that she couldn't cope with mainstream.

At which point I finally got fed up with hoping this year's teacher would be willing to listen and stop punishing her for fear-based responses.

Got the LA, various specialists and parent support organisations involved... and finally they've had to admit that a) she is academically capable of mainstream, b) their punitive approach was making her anxiety and therefore her behaviour worse, and c) that the problem was not with my parenting.

It shouldn't have taken 3 1/2 years of a fairly miserable school experience for the school to finally believe what I had been saying from day 1.

.

Allington, your eloquence brought tears to my eyes.
Bigmouth ( always loved your name btw.One of my many favourite Smiths' songs. Your post also struck a chord with me.Yours kids are lucky to have you as their parent.

Sorry for garbled post. Trying to do too many things.