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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

about those on the autistic spectrum in mainstream schools?

609 replies

OverbearingHouseSitter · 20/09/2017 23:21

Basically I've read so many threads recently about those on the autistic spectrum being completely let down by teachers and senior staff in schools.

I mean punishing those on the autistic spectrum in incidents when it is entirely inappropriate, and the lack of understanding of some teachers that you cannot use the same behaviour strategies on some children who require a different approach due to SEN.

And then there are times when punishment should not be given at all, such as when a child who is on the autistic spectrum behaving in a way that the teacher doesn't like, yet the teacher not seeming to realise that this behaviour is part of their SEN!

My mother was a teacher and I realise how hard being a teacher is. She got signed off sick with stress... it's a bloody hard job. But AIBU to think that some teachers and school staff- NOT all- seem to be consistently failing those on the autistic spectrum and those with other SEN, whatever these may be?

This is not just from this forum either! There have been instances from people I know I've heard about and with friends kids.

For example, a friends child was recently punished as he did not understand something the teacher said, ie, it was some form of light sarcasm the teacher used, friends DS with SEN did not register this, did what the teacher told the pupils sarcastically not to do and was then mortified and confused when the teacher punished him. Sad

So AIBU?

I also apologise if I have used an language around people with special needs that you do not like/prefer not to use. My friend prefers the term "on the autistic spectrum" opposed to "autistic child" but if I have said anything wrong please tell me!

OP posts:
Schoolknocks · 21/09/2017 11:23

I also think that SOME teachers (note the some) need to realise that not only do parents of sen know their child best but that many parents are also professionals, some of them in education, some of them in medical and some in special needs and it is inappropriate to talk down to them, ignore their opinions or in most cases blame them for your child's behaviour.

I've had some awful occasions of being talked down to by school sen/head teaching staff.

SingingMySong · 21/09/2017 11:55

I imagine teachers come across families with over-fussy helicopter parents who waste the teacher's time complaining about trivial issues concerning their basically happy, well behaved, academically successful NT children. They probably don't look that different to parents who come in complaining that their very similar seeming children are coming home and having enormous meltdowns. Perhaps the child has high anxiety and is really not coping but the teacher doesn't hear about because the child is not able to express the problem, so they sit quietly looking all NT but secretly drowning.

I think any teacher, TRAINED PROFESSIONAL or not, might be hard pushed to tell the 2 apart, especially as they only see them in a school setting. This is why they need to trust the clinical specialists who have the expertise in autism and who have considered the whole picture, not just how the child functions 9-3, 5 days a week in, essentially, a highly predictable environment. If autism specialists wouldn't consider diagnosing based on school alone, without at least a very detailed history and reports from elsewhere, why on earth would a teacher presume to know better?

We've been told many times that no label is needed, the school should be meeting the child's needs whether diagnosed or not. I've seen this work and it's great when that happens, but in schools where teachers are doubting the needs of even diagnosed children, there's not much hope for any others.

Starlight2345 · 21/09/2017 12:04

I would also add my child with ADHD, in some ways would be one of the children viva would be doubting diagnosis because he is just about holding his own educationally wise..However now medicated he is now flying high, A completely different child at school and at home.Meltdowns are far less.

He also is a child who is desperate to be considered well behaved so has to use so much energy trying to comply with the teachers he was emotionally exhausted by the time he got home.

Our children do spend a lot of time in school but this is only one part of who they are.

The reasons schools are asked there opinions is they see one side of the child.

The other thing to add most parent's I know also become far more knowledgeable on the diagnosis than a teacher after spending hours researching how to help our children.

My DS also has a rare diagnosis ( the only one in his school) i have had to educate his teachers, however they have been very open to what I have said and trying to accommodate his needs

millifiori · 21/09/2017 12:12

YANBU. DS2 is autistic but HFA which meant that he was within normal academic abilities (after a very slow start.) Most of his teachers were pretty cool towards him, one was absolutely vile, saying things like "His sour face spoils my smiley class." (That's a quote of what she actually said on parents' evening. He frowned in concentration trying to keep up with the NT world he was in - he wasn't diagnosed at the time. But he never had tantrums or played up. Just dared to be serious and introverted.)

Our experience of the state system was pretty unimpressive so we went private for secondary and it's been wonderful for him. They diagnosed him within a fortnight (we hadn't spotted it. DH is aspergic and so's my dad so for me Aspergeric behaviour is as normal as NT) Apart from one new teacher who quickly left, he's never been bullied. He gets superb support - a counsellor and twice weekly SENCO meetings (all included in school fees.) He has a lot of problems socially still but he's not sneered at and ignored or bullied or mocked by staff and fellow pupils anymore. He never dreads school.

YankeeCandles · 21/09/2017 12:36

Hello Cloudperson,
I have enquired about starting next year as couldn't afford it this year. I want to do it to challenge people like Viva

Notreallyarsed · 21/09/2017 13:00

Viva are you aware that as a headteacher who is stating they don’t have to take the “opinions” of trained medics/psychologists as fact you sound incredibly arrogant. Who are you to decide what a child’s dx should be? How are you more qualified than a paediatrician, ed psych, clinical psych, SALT and various other people always involved in the long, arduous and complex diagnostic procedure?

Why should I, or my children, justify their diagnosis to everyone who chooses not to believe it? Nobody with a physical disability would be asked to justify themselves, why are we different? Why are we an easy target? Because people like you decide you know us better than we know ourselves and a little bit of power goes to your head and you think you have the right to turn our lives upside down all over again because you can.

JonSnowsWife · 21/09/2017 13:01

How on earth is it your job to question a diagnosis? It really isn't. Confused

DeloresJaneUmbridge · 21/09/2017 13:07

YANBU, my niece is a teacher in a secondary school and says she got three hours training on SEN during her year as a student teacher,

She has watched in horror the appalling way some teachers manage students with SEN.

My niece spent a year prior to teacher training working in a pupil referral unit. She knows what should be done for students and more importantly how they should NOT be managed and treated. Some of her observations have filled me with horror.

My son is in a special school precisely because i wasn't prepared to wave him to flounder in a mainstream school with teachers who don't understand him or his autism.

dragonq · 21/09/2017 13:07

My DS had a terrible time in mainstream primary. He was constantly getting punished and eventually excluded for his behaviours, and the staff had really poor training on SEN and those who knew about autism at all only had a very narrow stereotypical view. They didn't even believe his diagnosis at first, as he appears very able and was assessed by an educational psychologist to have a very high IQ. When it came to secondary I dug my heels in and told my council they needed to fund a placement for him at a residential autism-specific school, where he would get access to therapists, psychologists and small class sizes. They refused due to cost but I took them to tribunal and won, so he has got excellent educational provision throughout his secondary schooling and all the staff around him are fully trained and there is enough staff there to actually meet his needs. There are a few mainstream schools which are OK, especially for those with milder needs, but for complex cases like my son's they can be terrible.

Lancelottie · 21/09/2017 13:15

NobleGiraffe, this caught my eye:
I've taught quite a few autistic students and I don't know how best to deal with this particular student. Part of the problem seems to be simply being in the classroom and that can't be fixed
because it reminded me of DS1's primary school saying in despair to the autism outreach worker, 'Nothing works, he's not interested in any rewards or incentives, he just wants to be out of the classroom...' and the outreach worker interrupting with 'There's your incentive and reward right there. He wants to be out of the room. You reward a few minutes of quiet work by letting him out.'

It went against all instinct to send him out for good behaviour but by goodness it worked. He built up from those few minutes to longer spells, and by the end of secondary he was spending 90 to 95% of the time tolerating mainstream lessons.

(Still has to duck out of university lectures sometimes, but I don't have to field phonecalls about that!)

CorbynsBumFlannel · 21/09/2017 13:21

Viva I think you must have missed your medical degree off that list of qualifications as I didn't see it???
There are some arrogant teachers who think autism is poor parenting, spoilt children whatever. I'm pretty certain I've come across at least one. But what they don't know is that my child is able to function as well as they can due to the hours daily that we have worked on his speech and understanding. Daily board games to help develop focus, executive functions and ability to be a good winner/loser. Midline crossing exercises to help his co-ordination. Reading social stories and endless role playing of social situations to teach him the skills to cope. Mindfulness activities to help with his emotional regulation etc etc.
My son was described as having excellent behaviour in his report at the end of last year. He is in the top set for all subjects. No doubt there are staff at his school who think he doesn't have autism. He is treated exactly like any other child. Things he has been punished for this week include leaving his coat on the playground, getting distracted staring at a display on the wall while the teacher was speaking and bothering a teacher to tell them he was being kicked. He hates school. It's a real shame.

ponderingprobably · 21/09/2017 13:28

Things he has been punished for this week include leaving his coat on the playground, getting distracted staring at a display on the wall while the teacher was speaking and bothering a teacher to tell them he was being kicked. He hates school. It's a real shame.

This type of thing really saddens me about schools currently. Who decided this harsh, inflexible approach towards discipline was right? No wonder a child with any additional needs can easily fall foul of it. We had some bizarre teachers in the 80s but I do not remember every been treated quite as harshly. Now, some schools seem to be actually bragging about it.

CorbynsBumFlannel · 21/09/2017 13:42

It's awful. Even my nt child is in a constant state of anxiety because punishments are dished out so liberally for things like forgetting equipment etc. Both of my kids are very well behaved, compliant and wouldn't dream of hitting or being mean or anything like that yet but there are certain things like wandering attention that I think a child with asd should be given a little leeway on - or at least some help to meet expectations rather than punishment. But hey ho maybe the none medically qualified teachers think they know better than the paediatrician, speech therapist and ed psych who diagnosed my son.

CorbynsBumFlannel · 21/09/2017 13:43

This is lower primary school btw.

vivaVasLagas · 21/09/2017 13:49

bigmouthstrikesagain

I stepped away from the thread as it was becoming very adversarial and I wasn't putting my opinions across in the way I wanted to and usually can. I do think it's sad though that anyone who has an opinion which ever suggests something against the tide of MN opinion is called arrogant for daring to have it!

I'm unaffected by government spending having worked in independent schools or non-mainstream schools most of my career. In fact, what made me most frustrated were the suggestions that I don't believe some children deserve a great education or are badly behaved through their own choice or are too much trouble to bother with.

It is very hard for me to run an inclusive yet expensive independent school. There's a lot of NIMBY-ism from parents who expect fees to buy academic achievement and keep their children away from more demanding children. My job isn't any harder than state schools who have very limited budgets and other issues to contend with but I could have chosen to simply say 'no' to these children and traded beliefs for an easier life.

"I have to take issue with Viva stating that due to years of experience and Qualifications she is able to question a Paediatricians diagnosis of ASD"

Surely these are the only two things which count when questioning another's decision?

"is it only Autism that you question or do you have a second opinion on all diagnoses that may require intervention at school?"

Predominantly yes. That isn't simply because I've got it in for people with ASD though. As a spectrum and umbrella term, it encompasses so much that many (most?) AEN children are autistic and therefore are it's likely I'll come across them.

I read in extra detail any information about students with dyslexia. It was a focus of mine in my SENCO role and have questioned other's opinions about children before.

NotReallyArsed

How are you more qualified than a paediatrician, ed psych, clinical psych, SALT and various other people

Being a SALT (MSc Speech and Language Therapy), I'd say I'm as qualified as one of those you mention whose opinion you hold in such high esteem.

I have never asked a parent or child to justify their diagnosis.

Children don't know themselves better than teachers (especially in primary) as they are children and can be confused and vulnerable, NT or not.

I have a lot (not a little) power but have never wanted to turn anyone's life upside down.

I cannot overturn a diagnosis but you misunderstand what it means at an independent school. A diagnosis means nothing. You get no extra funding, no special treatment beyond others, nothing. Every child has varying behavioural expectations and is judged on their achievement relative to their abilities. An ASD DX may give us a starting point to work from but not more. We make our own opinions based on our knowledge and first hand observations of the child (taking notice of parents and others suggestions) and I think we are all the better for it.
In a similar way, teachers hold handover meetings for 99% of a cohort 2 weeks into a new academic year. Not only does this give the new teacher time to note any relevant questions but it also avoids preformed ideas; it allows the teacher to view things from a fresh pair of eyes and without bias.

Corbyn

Your sarcasm's gone way over my head.

I don't think ASD and poor parenting are synonymous nor that the latter causes the former (although this is being investigated with regard to de novo mutations) but I absolutely believe I've met a few children who didn't have ASD but had diagnoses stating they did.

Schoolknocks · 21/09/2017 13:52

Singingmysong.

Mine used to sit there as a very quiet 'nt' and just not very academic struggler who preferred her own company and say nothing then walk through the door and within minutes absolutely explode at something that had had happened in school or that she had no friends.

I would go to school and tell them and I'm pretty sure they thought I was making it up.

blankface · 21/09/2017 13:53

I absolutely believe I've met a few children who didn't have ASD but had diagnoses stating they did

Do some research on Masking.

CorbynsBumFlannel · 21/09/2017 13:54

You can believe what you like but your qualifications do not qualify you to diagnose asd. I may believe I could run an independent school better than you due to my various qualifications and life experience. No doubt you would take exception to that.
I can't see any other way to describe your position than arrogance.

Ttbb · 21/09/2017 13:56

While teachers do need training (that a lot of them do get) to help understand SEN some teachers are just dicks-who actually punishes a child for not getting sarcasm?!

Schoolknocks · 21/09/2017 13:56

I should add that now she is under the care of two brilliant senco staff who believe she has SN and teachers who 'get her' she is doing amazing, has a group of friends who do watch out for her and is on target for everything A to C. Go figure.

JonSnowsWife · 21/09/2017 14:02

Being a SALT (MSc Speech and Language Therapy), I'd say I'm as qualified as one of those you mention whose opinion you hold in such high esteem.

Our SALT has separate diagnostic teams for children suspected to be on the spectrum, because a general SALT doesn't have the same diagnostic training Hmm

zzzzz · 21/09/2017 14:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Schoolknocks · 21/09/2017 14:04

'This means that if autism signs are reduced or not present in school or college, for example, that is definitely not a reason to stop investigating. To make things even more complicated, not many people realise that there is no one behaviour that reliably identifies someone as autistic and therefore observation alone is obviously an insufficient approach.

Tony Attwood, Simon Baron-Cohen and many other experts, discuss masking in numerous text books and research papers describing how children and young people on the autism spectrum adapt and masking their signs of autism in different contexts.

Identifying autism is sometimes obvious, but on many occasions, especially for Asperger Syndrome and female presentations of autism, this is a job for specialists only. Other people in health and education roles who are familiar with a limited range of presentations, will often fail to identify when masking is taking place and unfortunately, not defer to parents as the experts on their own children.'

Quote from the article. Seriously Viva for the sake of kids in your care please not the last paragraph...

Schoolknocks · 21/09/2017 14:06

*read