about those on the autistic spectrum in mainstream schools?

[OverbearingHouseSitter]

Basically I've read so many threads recently about those on the autistic spectrum being completely let down by teachers and senior staff in schools.

I mean punishing those on the autistic spectrum in incidents when it is entirely inappropriate, and the lack of understanding of some teachers that you cannot use the same behaviour strategies on some children who require a different approach due to SEN.

And then there are times when punishment should not be given at all, such as when a child who is on the autistic spectrum behaving in a way that the teacher doesn't like, yet the teacher not seeming to realise that this behaviour is part of their SEN!

My mother was a teacher and I realise how hard being a teacher is. She got signed off sick with stress... it's a bloody hard job. But AIBU to think that some teachers and school staff- NOT all- seem to be consistently failing those on the autistic spectrum and those with other SEN, whatever these may be?

This is not just from this forum either! There have been instances from people I know I've heard about and with friends kids.

For example, a friends child was recently punished as he did not understand something the teacher said, ie, it was some form of light sarcasm the teacher used, friends DS with SEN did not register this, did what the teacher told the pupils sarcastically not to do and was then mortified and confused when the teacher punished him.

So AIBU?

I also apologise if I have used an language around people with special needs that you do not like/prefer not to use. My friend prefers the term "on the autistic spectrum" opposed to "autistic child" but if I have said anything wrong please tell me!

This thread will already show up ignorance...

Viva I assume you are talking about ADHD meds and assume you don't realise they would send someone without ADHD as high as a kite.

I do believe there are not enough special school spaces and for some children who really struggle in mainstream with thrive in Special school or even satalite units. There are far too many children been Home educated because mainstream schools are failing them..

There will always be a discrepancy in the time spent with teacher. My DS does have SEN and at times takes a lot of teachers time. However in maths he is in the independent learning group in maths so has and needs far less support from the teacher than the children struggling with maths.

I think because of the way the system is currently there should be more training on SEN's in teacher training.

I will also say for those who are adamant of over diagnosis, I can tell you my DS will mask at school and will cover , however he doesn't always manage it. As he has one further through the school he has find it harder , If asked in year 1 I am sure they would of said no SEN, he saved it all up for home.

YANBU. My son has a diagnosis of autism and his experience of mainstream school was very damaging to him, mainly due to the staff. I finally pulled him out when he was punished for his vocal tics during quiet reading time. I've been home educating him now for over 2 years, doing my best but it isn't ideal and he deserved far better from the system. Our experiences are far from unique and the reason a lot of other families I know also home ed.

I don't think the way that teaching has changed, along with the classroom environment , is particularly supportive of many children on the spectrum. Classrooms are noisier, brighter and more cluttered, teaching is highly interactive, groups, pairs, collaboration and targeted...

I suggest that anyone in the UK takes a course in 'The History and Structure of British Education'. Schooling isn't provided in order that every need be met.

If the 'number of autistics' is rising, that's ace. We're great people.

As a teacher if I were to become proficient in every SEND and associated strategy that came through my classroom door, I would still be training and I have been teaching along time.

It is good that you admit that, Boney. All too often, I have found teachers, who have been on a couple of courses, presenting themselves as some kind of experts.

My DC was diagnosed with some minor additional needs/developmental delays when younger (not autism) and I used to get tired of teachers assuming they were autistic and trying to use strategies geared towards additional needs my child just did not have. It felt like they were forever trying to build a 'case' for stuff which just wasn't there, to justify keeping funding. This even went so far as to play down progress made. I had to teach at home to fill in the gaps. Thus my DC's needs were distorted.

My child had significant individual funding (enough for full time 1 to 1) which, in the end was, very clearly, been utilised elsewhere. It was only when we got the funding ceased that, finally, my DC's full progress began to be acknowledged. My DC is now achieving above average.

IMO 'pop' diagnoses, this type of fraudulent distortion of needs and redistribution of funds erodes the meaningfulness of valid professional diagnosis. It means there is less consistent funding for those who need it as relying on another child's funding is a precarious position to be in.

Some children needs are best catered for at Special School, some children's are not. However, I remember, my DC's head teacher wanted to push for Special School for my DC - which was entirely political, not due to my DC's actual needs. I'm glad we stuck to our guns. If we'd built the 'case', as they'd suggested, I think the outcome would have been worse. Nearly all the staff, at that time, were prepared to collude, unto their own ends. Scary.

There is a horrible TA at DS's school who complains to any parent who will listen about a girl with autism.

Have you reported her opheliacat? I would be outraged if my child was being gossiped about in that way.

One of the reasons I left state education was because I was unable to meet the needs of each child. The sheer volume of work (plus crap slt) meant that I simply didn't have the time to do my job properly. I felt that the extra work I was doing for some children (in our case mostly dealing with poor behaviour rather than sen) meant that most children weren't getting the help and attention they deserved.

Until the teacher workload issues are properly addressed there will always be teachers who fail to properly meet need the needs of some pupils. For some teachers this will mean their sen pupils not getting the right support. For others it may be their high achieving pupils, or disadvantaged pupils. Either way I think (in most cases) it is the system which is at fault.

Viva
As part of a diagnostic team (kindly note the word team), you're talking absolute nonsense. It takes up to two years to make a full diagnosis and never less than six months. Folk don't walk in with a list of symptoms for their child, with the GP then agreeing and saying yes, they have an ASC. We are aware of the nonsense promulgated by out of touch educational staff (at all levels) and are careful with diagnosis.)
I'd also like to suggest that if you're going to accuse someone of being incoherent, I'd suggest you check your own posts first. Your sentence structure, wording and grammar are really quite abominable.

Teachers who have worked with my son haven't believed his diagnosis, believed I was making it up, believed he just needed some discipline.
My son masked in school, enough to pull the wool over teacher's eyes, but not enough for specialist support teachers, who saw it clearly. Sadly though, when the teachers decided not to support him, the external support teachers couldn't do much about it.
Had ds had a physical, visible disability, school would be falling over themselves to help him.
It's part of the double standards that happen when it comes to invisible disabilities.

There was a YouGov poll of teachers early this year or last year (IIRC?), reported widely with comments showing that many teachers didn't believe lots of the diagnoses the children had. This is the problem. It's a widespread opinion that a diagnosis is easy to get, and that children are over diagnosed, when in fact it's very difficult, draining, traumatic even, to go through the assessment process, there are hoops to jump through which would pick out the "badly parented" children, yet we still face these assumptions.
Teachers are not in any position to query a child's diagnosis, yet they do, and withhold support on a regular basis and face no sanction for doing this.
Of course it's not just some teachers, the LA must hole some responsibility, and should be held to account for their actions, often lying to parents, and spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on barristers to fight parents who only want their child to be educated.

@YankeeCandle I'm starting the MA at Sheffield Hallam this time, is this the course you're doing? I'm autistic too. Did you go to the induction the other day?

Yanbu
The senco in the school I worked in had had six hours generic sen training. Not enough by far.
Friends of ours spent years battling the system with a very well behaved sen child who just didn't fit the system.

They struggled socially and the school complained to the mother that their child was controlling and only wanted to play one to one and didn't want to play in a group.

They were shouted at for having processing issues because by the time the teacher had stopped talking on the carpet it was too many instructions at once to know how to start their work so they missed sections out.

Mind you there is a general misunderstanding of autism in general. A friend was trying to organise a public transport nightmare because the buses are going on strike and it means her teens school bus won't run meaning three changes on the bus route for that time instead of direct, two of those changes being in a place teen has never been and not central and a Mum claiming to have an autistic child had a go at her because her child would find it easy. Well yeah it's a huge spectrum.

Gilead

I'd say my writing was near perfect. I think there was an accidental your / you're typo somewhere. What mistakes did I make.

I do love discussing SPAG errors with strangers on the internet.

I'd also like to suggest that if you're going to accuse someone of being incoherent, I'd suggest you ...

Gilead, I think there is a huge problem regarding the integrity, of valid professional diagnoses, being eroded when unqualified people 'pop' diagnose. Eventually even diagnostic thresholds and criteria can end up being, effectively, changed as thresholds for funding dictate the advantages of going through the diagnostic process. This undoubtedly, has a huge, knock on effect, in terms of funding reaching those who need it.

I have stiched but nothing happens.

My DS with AS is now doing a Masters, so my take on this might be a bit out of date. Late diagnosis, poor SENCo in first school, we moved county, as neighbouring county supposedly better funded for SEN. Poor teaching in second (teacher would not give him an inch, ridiculed him in class, wouldn't deal with him being bullied).
At 10 he school refused for months. County would only help 'if he was pregnant or terminally ill' so no education. But with support of fantastic Senco and Ed Psych we got him back to school. Eventually, we went to Tribunal and got him into a special school, not on the back of his AS but the Dyslexia.
It revolutionised his life and ours. Within a fortnight the difference in him as a person was astounding.E xceptionally bright but unable to read at 11, he went on to get 9 GCSEs A* - C, including English. But actually the main benefit was in his self belief. He was no longer the odd one out, every child was taken out of class for 1:1, SLT. Half the (tiny) class couldn't kick a ball, so they were streamed for PE. Low anxiety levels. He won a player of the year award. He simply blossomed into the outstanding man he is today. Life will never be easy for him, but I honestly think he would have taken his own life if he had been made to attend mainstream school for secondary.
So yes, I think that inclusivity doesn't work for all, I think that mainstream education fails those with and without SEN. My DD classes were often disrupted by children with SEN, and with all the cuts it's probably even worse now.
There needs to be a truce between health and education. When going through the tribunal every specialist in the diagnostic unit told us he needed to be in a small specialist provision school, named schools to look at but they wouldn't put it in writing as it would cross a line into 'education' and create a shit storm.
My DSs education cost a lot more than other children's, which the LEA had to pay but what alternative for society? Long term poor mental health, never working, prison maybe? SS involvement, wrecked lives for us and DD? All way more costly than 5 years intensive secondary education.
Well done if you managed to get to the end of this. Can you tell it's still an emotive issue for me?

dinahmorris

One of the reasons I left state education was because I was unable to meet the needs of each child. The sheer volume of work (plus crap slt) meant that I simply didn't have the time to do my job properly. I felt that the extra work I was doing for some children (in our case mostly dealing with poor behaviour rather than sen) meant that most children weren't getting the help and attention they deserved

This is my also my BF's experience. She left the state sector a year ago on the point of hopelessness. Inclusion is, of course, good and right; all children are equally entitled to education.
But in her experience there are a mix of SEN and non-statemented children in a class with NT children one TA, individual education plans for each child which must be adhered to, multi agency involvement and co-ordinated lesson plans which cater to all the SEN children's individual needs, while trying to make sure all children, SEN or NT were at an ideal point, she burned out. She could not do her job, felt she'd failed, disillusioned with expectation, and left at the end of last Summer Term.

Teachers are being forced to spread themselves so thinly, that even those with the best of intentions and abilities simply can't cater to everyone's vast needs, and NT children are being overlooked and left to their own habits because of the complex, hands-on needs of some children who are at varying levels of the Autistic Spectrum, in an underfunded, mismanaged environment, and consequently everyone suffers to some degree.

viva Absolutely no idea why you underlined 'I'd'. I used it twice. Not a problem. However, I find it somewhat concerning that all you took from my post was that you have a spelling and grammar problem. If indeed you are a headteacher, whilst that is a problem in your position; I rather think it's the least of them. There are presumably children in your school with ASC diagnoses, one would wonder if you feel the need to question the judgement of six months work with a team of people, because you are professionally able to do so, whether said children are indeed getting the support they need.

Teachers blamed again.

Is it any wonder they're leaving the profession in droves.

Teachers blamed again

Sometimes teachers are at fault, though. The reason teaching is considered a profession is because it is difficult and requires a degree of accountability. Parents of children with SEN are forced to deal with such an adversarial process. Often the first on the firing line, in terms of 'blame', is the parents themselves. It is stressful all round however avoiding looking at teacher's actions and responsibilities is not an answer. They are integral to the whole process of making sure needs are met.

Special schools are being closed, though, aren't they? They're very expensive.

I'm all for inclusivity, within mainstream BUT what we're really seeing in SN provision being cut in the name of an inclusivity that is anything but real inclusivity. It's exclusion within the mainstream.

If only we had taken some of the features of special education and brought them, along with children, into the mainstream, especially the high adult:child ratio, smaller class sizes and an awareness that educational goals (and how to achieve those) are not the same for every child.

There's also a hidden scandal about the ability to get a diagnosis/assessment for your child. Some, not all, schools, have made 'invisible' cuts around access to outside professional help. A lot of parents do not realise that their child will not be assessed because a school have bought a 'professionals package' and have a limited number of assessments available before they have to pay again - and they can't afford it.

I completely agree that this is a structural issue, rather than one of 'good' teachers versus 'bad' teachers. Teachers are having the stuffing pulled out of them trying to make up for systemic failures. It should be a national scandal.

The children are thriving and are absolutely getting the support that they need. Thank you.

I feel the need to question many, many things. It isn't to do with ability so much as necessity.

I listen to those I trust although never absolutely.

I question diagnoses because it is my job. I need to be sure in my own mind that anything I am told about a student is true and correct as it falls on my shoulders to show that everything possible was done at my school to help every single child who passes through it. But she said that ... won't cut it when errors are made.

I realise that Ed Psycs and Clinical Psycs never like having their opinions questioned but that's their issue as they aren't used to not being 'the boss' within their own little world.

Out of interest, was your last paragraph written appallingly simply to goad me into correcting it?

My PhD was in grammar and Natural Language Processing so I'd be happy to follow you if you want to go off on some weird SPAG tangent.

viva well your years of experience don't change the fact that my sons y6 teacher who knew that he had learning difficulties told him off because he wouldn't stand in front of the class and give a presentation.
It doesn't change that my friends daughter has been out of education for 2 years because her ASD wasn't diagnosed until she was 13.
It doesn't change that one teacher in my sons school called him 'a bit simple'.
I don't expect miracles from teachers, but I DO expect and demand a certain level of understanding, of admitting when they are wrong, of realising that I know my child better than they do and that if they work with me, instead of against me, i can actually help.
I work as an SLT. i'm totally aware of how limited resources are and how hard it is for teachers, but that doesn't excuse a basic level of human decency that many teachers lack.

And for what its worth, i think my son would be better served outside of mainstream education. But because the system is as it, that isn't an option. so whilst he has to be in mainstream, I sure as shit will fight to the death to get him as much support as I can.