about those on the autistic spectrum in mainstream schools?

[OverbearingHouseSitter]

Basically I've read so many threads recently about those on the autistic spectrum being completely let down by teachers and senior staff in schools.

I mean punishing those on the autistic spectrum in incidents when it is entirely inappropriate, and the lack of understanding of some teachers that you cannot use the same behaviour strategies on some children who require a different approach due to SEN.

And then there are times when punishment should not be given at all, such as when a child who is on the autistic spectrum behaving in a way that the teacher doesn't like, yet the teacher not seeming to realise that this behaviour is part of their SEN!

My mother was a teacher and I realise how hard being a teacher is. She got signed off sick with stress... it's a bloody hard job. But AIBU to think that some teachers and school staff- NOT all- seem to be consistently failing those on the autistic spectrum and those with other SEN, whatever these may be?

This is not just from this forum either! There have been instances from people I know I've heard about and with friends kids.

For example, a friends child was recently punished as he did not understand something the teacher said, ie, it was some form of light sarcasm the teacher used, friends DS with SEN did not register this, did what the teacher told the pupils sarcastically not to do and was then mortified and confused when the teacher punished him.

So AIBU?

I also apologise if I have used an language around people with special needs that you do not like/prefer not to use. My friend prefers the term "on the autistic spectrum" opposed to "autistic child" but if I have said anything wrong please tell me!

Flexibility! At the moment there is very little. My son would fail in a mainstream class and that would not be the teachers fault. But perhaps in a few years, he could go half and half.

How much knowledge and experience have you got of current mainstream settings, and how SENs can be catered for within mainstream, Banana?

From some of your posts, I think you are underestimating the SEN provision which can be made. Yes, some mainstream schools fail in terms of some of their SEN provision.

I mentioned some shortcomings in provision my DC experienced. Quite vociferously, because I am still pretty angry about some of them. This is because potentially the outcomes could have been terrible if I had not challenged educational professionals. It felt like such a near miss.

However, although difficult sometimes, we all coped. Day to day, I compensated by teaching at home for the gaps in provision. Some teachers there were also actually very good. Memorably so. My DC did still manage to thrive, has some really happy memories from that time and I don't regret not changing schools.

Just to say, that you need to really know about the current mainstream settings available to know how your son would cope with them, Banana.

Yes I am saying exactly that. Any child with additional needs should not have any assumptions made about them full stop.

They should be assessed and have individual plans.

I'm actually for more small specialist units within mainstream schools, where there is regular time in regular classes too. This means that any children who get on fine in a regular class can make that transition pretty easily, and any difficulties have a team that can help overcome these rather than putting this on a teacher.

My ideal would be these units in most schools including secondary. They could also serve a dual purpose of having expertise on hand for teachers in regular classes.

I'm one of many parents who know that their children will not receive the best education in mainstream schools. It's not the teachers fault or the schools. However I think with the right structure this could be a future possibility, so would love him in a school unit rather than a special school completely separate.

pondering yes I do have full and in depth knowledge about current mainstream settings and thank goodness as otherwise my child, currently thriving in a unit, would be absolutely traumatised in a mainstream class and may be put off school full stop. With the professionals who teach him, we've all agreed he is in no way ready as yet.

I've seen behaviour get a lot worse and whole years of learning missed amongst children of friends. Not all, as you say, some are fine, however they had good language or with some, just sat in a corner. I very carefully made a choice, and had to move to do it. So glad I did. Let's make the system better!

I'm actually for more small specialist units within mainstream schools, where there is regular time in regular classes too. This means that any children who get on fine in a regular class can make that transition pretty easily, and any difficulties have a team that can help overcome these rather than putting this on a teacher.

I think this is a good flexible solution, as long as the units are used and run appropriately.

They should not be used to simply segregate children with additional needs, so as not to 'put' on a (class) teacher. A lot of children can learn to cope better in mainstream but they need to have the opportunity to learn.

Also class teachers in mainstream, IMO, should expect to teach some children with some degree of SENs. It is an important part of teaching. Because children are human and statically not everyone will be totally within a narrow 'norm' Differentiation and flexibility of approach makes for a better teacher IMO. If too much specialisation to a narrow 'middle' band occurs, it could encourage a de-skilling amongst teachers. Differentiation then becomes too difficult. Exploring different teaching approaches becomes too difficult. This is no good for NT children either. Teaching becomes static and rigid.

Added to this, just because a child is in the category of having SENs, they do not necessarily have more educational needs in common with another child with SENs, than with another child who does not have SENs.

Differing SENs can conflict and compete with each other. Putting all children with SEN together in a unit is not necessarily better than having children with SENs spread across several mainstream classes. Here is where larger schools are actually a positive. Small schools being better is cliche many seem to hold to. However I've always liked large schools. I went to one. Well organised, there are several positives.

I don't know why anyone would have a problem with a separate unit?

Segregation happens when we don't give each child a fair chance at education suiting their needs. My son is getting a much better chance with specialised teaching - it is increasing his chance of eventually, possibly, being able to have many more choices when he's an adult.

Reading groups are a perfect example, is that segregation? No, it's more input for those that need it.

I do agree that it's very important for any segregated unit not to get complacent, and to ensure regular time in mainstream. Good goals and individual plans, key!

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a good clear plan of future Sen provision, what works, what doesn't, at all in uk. It's frustrated schools, parents, chasing after provision, it's all on the back foot.

Specialist at what exactly?

There's a huge range of SEN. Should we assume that a dyspraxic child needs to be taken out of class, put in a specialist unit, assessed and then be released back into mainstream with a report saying they need some support with organisation and PE? Does a kid with one arm need a specialist assessment? Some kids with dyslexia aren't even diagnosed till sixth form, should they have been in a specialist unit all along?

Schools do usually have an SEN department.

My child goes to an ASD specialist unit. It's run by a qualified teacher, who has also extensive post graduate training in ASD and Sen. It's smalll so although each have very individual sessions, and there's regular SLT, occupational therapy, a sensory room, social skills building, and the room is custom set up with visuals and the noise level is low.

My step child with dyspraxia failed for some years before we got better provision, which was laptop, extra time, less homework, one hour support, in mainstream class. It took an assessment and meeting with school and OT to work out what was best. No it didn't take a specialist unit.

I imagine a child with one arm would have had some kind of medical assessment! Where education, whether they needed assistance with P
E etc, would be flagged up.

Those with dyslexia, well yes it would be much better if they had been picked up earlier. As soon as a problem emerged, then an appropriate assessment would be good.

So to answer your question, it's what suits the child and what is best for them. Any additional needs that emerge before school should be assessed and recommendations made.

Or just chuck them all in together and hope for the best? Not sure what the above posters are getting at.

Banana have you read my last post?

Where I mention children with SENs not necessarily having more in common with another child with SENs than one with no SENs? Conflicting and competing SENs?

"Of course NT children are easier to teach." It is this sort of generalisation that fills me with despair but also, i have to say, contempt. Can people really be so ignorant as to believe the above statement is reflective of reality? In my DS class he is acknowledged by his teachers to be not only one of the most able but most receptive and compliant pupils - in stark contrast to a number of NT children who are consistently disruptive and badly behaved. I wonder what would happen if I started saying get the NT kids out so our children have a chance to learn?

Of course NT children are easier to teach

LOL

I worked in a class of 50% SEN - they were 'no trouble' there were howerver 5/6very badly behavied NT children who didn't like the word NO, were demanding and needy and unable to 'find a pencil'

Works both ways

Karlos, you do know I was being sarcastic when I posted that, don't you? I did say in my post that I did not believe NT children are necessarily easier to teach! I was attempting to challenge the assumption & show where it could lead.

As soon as a problem emerged, then an appropriate assessment would be good.

Sometimes the problems don't emerge until sixth form. I've seen kids with autism not diagnosed until partway through secondary. You're saying that mainstream shouldn't be assumed for kids with SEN, but most of them will already be in mainstream when their SEN are diagnosed.

An ASD specialist unit would be no use for a kid with a different SEN. So what would they do if the school they went to didn't have a specialist unit for their specific issues?

It wasn't your post Pondering. One of the alleged "teachers", god help us

This was my post yesterday, responding to Balfe, who did seem to believe this;

Is it not fairer for NT children who get to come in, sit down and work in a calm, quiet classroom? Of course NT children are easier to teach

If the Specialist Sector is increased those NT children would be shoved into schools with less resources, larger classes, teachers who have less training and are paid less. Because that is what would realistically happen. Because, as you say, NT children are easier to teach....

Btw I don't think they necessarily are. Not NT needs may be different but not necessarily more difficult to cater for. Although sometimes they are. I say this as a parent of a DC who has had some additional needs.

X post Karlos. You had me worried then!

I think some responses above are just a bit intent on knocking any ideas that can work for many children.

Really all of this is just hot air.

We should have national guidelines of what is best practice. Looking at outcomes, looking at other countries. Instead of thinking that any of us have all the answers for everyone.

I think some responses above are just a bit intent on knocking any ideas that can work for many children.

No we are pointing out they would not work for all children with SENs. They might work well for some children with SENs.

The potential large schools have, I think is underestimated. They allow a lot of flexibility in groupings, are able to maintain a good bank of resource, experience and expertise. They also will allow for children to come across a diverse group of other children - which means there is more chance they will find someone who they get on well with. Which is good for being able to run a diverse selection of extra curricular activities.

We should have national guidelines of what is best practice.

We have, to some extent. However I would hate these guidelines to be too restrictive or prescriptive. When they are it leads to more children having needs outside the norm, because they lie outside what national guidelines say they should be. I could see you having extra special SENs as a category then! (I think my DC might have fallen into that bracket at one point!)

Children whether they have SENs or not are individuals.

Regarding specialist units that are linked to the mainstream classroom: I know that in Finland they have a system whereby most schools have a SEN classroom with a specialist Special Needs teacher, who presumably know a lot about most kinds of SEN. Children move between the Special Needs classroom and the mainstream one as deemed appropriate; sometimes children without SEN spend time there as well, when they need more intensive tuition in something, or for other reasons. They reckon about half of all children spend some time in the SEN classroom at some point in their school careers. That said, they also probably have more children in special schools than we do, as well.

I have read this thread with great interest, both as a secondary school teacher in a comp which has a good reputation for inclusion within our area and a parent of a 3 year old with significant SEN.

As a teacher, it is challenging to have a wide range of students with different needs in my classes. But inclusion is so important. I totally agree with the comments that understanding the needs of that particular student is more important that catch-all strategies. It is the 'pen portraits' and individual strategies that I find most useful. The biggest barrier for me is time. Along with marking and setting individual targets, planning schemes of work and all the other paperwork, planning time including differentiation is gradually eaten away. And I would consider myself to be a conscientious teacher (just finished marking for tonight).

We are currently looking at schools for my son, hoping he will get the EHCP we are applying for. We have looked at mainstream, enhanced resource units and special schools. For me, the ideal is the enhanced unit but it is all down to numbers. I wish someone would just tell me which school would be best for him!

An ASD specialist unit would be no use for a kid with a different SEN. So what would they do if the school they went to didn't have a specialist unit for their specific issues

But ever what suits one child with ASD will not suit another child with ASD. In my area we have a range of special schools, units and MS with ASD children.
If you just look at private ASD school which receive LA funded students; there are ones for high achieving students with behavioural difficulties and ones for non-verbal/barely verbal students.

I think what really gets to me is how badly some children are managed on mainstream schools and how those kids are failed....and they ARE failed.

My son struggled massively in mainstream school and it was clear to see. If I hadn't kicked up and fuss and gone to the LEA (which was a whole other battle) I am convinced my son would have been left to flounder.

It saddens me that those kids whose parents maybe are not happy but don't have the words or the confidence to fight are left to struggle and continually absorbing the message "I am not as good as other people". What does that do to a child's mental and emotional health?

My son goes to mainstream there is a big gap between specialist school and mainstream, some children don’t fit well in either.
I don’t believe you can have the same sanctions for SEN/Autism in mainstream as you do for everyone else. There is little flexible and definitely not enough funding or understanding around these children’s issues.