To feel uncomfortable about this

[user1471558723]

My mother is in her late eighties, she lives alone and looks after herself. I live some distance away but speak to her most days. I do her shopping and visit her once or twice a week.
She attends a craft club once a week, it's attended by people of all ages.
A much younger lady began dropping my mother at home each week, this then developed into her offering to collect my mother. This lady let's call her Anne is very kind she has according to my mother an unsupportive partner, a large family, primary school age children, grown up children and grand children. She looks after them all and does not have a job. Anne also looks after her elderly father who has terminal cancer.
I was delighted when Anne offered my mother regular lifts to and from the craft club. But now the friendship has intensified. Anne is visiting my mum several times a week. She is "helping" my mother with all the administrative work that I used to do, sorting out insurance etc.
I've told my mum there is no need to involve Anne in all this as she obviously is a woman with commitments of her own. My mum insists Anne wants to do everything she does.
My mum is very well placed financially and reading between the lines life has not been so kind to Anne.
I would really like to think that Anne is a lovely lady who has found a friendship with my mother despite the 45 year age gap. I'm just a bit uncertain and would value other people's opinions.

And what about families where the children would want these things kept within the family because they feel that they should be entitled to their parents' money?

Also, there is a vast difference between doing someone's shopping and doing their other financial affairs. And as yet the OP hasn't said exactly what Ann has been doing for her.

Only with mums permission can she set up cameras in her home.

Trust your instincts. I think you need to speak to Anne and maybe remove papers etc to your house. She might well be totally genuine -
but even so she could be making poor decisions and leaving a mess behind her.

Think about setting up on line accounts etc that only you have the details for.

This can all be done under the guise of explaining that you do not want to take advantage of her good nature and that you are on top of paperwork etc and don't want any confusion . Stress how you want her to spend the time with your mother on fun things - not admin. Stress that you have things set up how you like. Make it clear that you know what is going on admin/finance wise.

Unpleasant but necessary. I've seen people tricked out of large sums - frankly if people are well off and alone they are targets.

Sorry haven't read whole thread.
I would suggest - talking to mum about LPA, if she has the mental capacity for this, she doesn't have to ask you, she could have a solicitor fulfill this role ( but there would be a cost)
Speak to her local trading standard who may well work with her directly, give her signs to put up etc that may well put off Anne if she is behaving untoward
If your mum has an illness/ impairment of some kind and may have care and support needs, as defined by the Care Act ( regardless of if she is getting any formal help with these) then her local authority safeguarding team should be contacted for advice ( this is the criteria that they would be looking at).
Ann may well be a good friend, then again she may not

"Think about setting up on line accounts etc that only you have the details for." oh yeah, why not remove her mum's ability to manage her own money from her because the OP thinks she's incapable.

Perhaps if the mum is so incompetent that she needs someone to spy on her with video cameras, take away all her money and personal documents and her permission to engage with whoever she wants the OP should also be in charge of selling the house so the mum can be placed in a suitable care home. That'll ensure that no-one gets her money and that she's taken care of properly.

I agree with SuperDandy's post on p7

Definitely set up a secret camera in your mum's house, but don't tell her.

Er... really, REALLY don't do this! It would be an appallingly unethical breach of your mum's privacy.

At this stage it could go either way - Anne might be a perfectly nice lady, or she could be a scam artist. As PP have said, it's unusual to have soooo many responsibilities and also have time to visit your elderly friend several times a week. It also troubles me that when you directly addressed the fact that YOU used to do the shopping, Anne fobbed you off. At the very least, she's insensitive to hints. And it does seem odd to take on someone else's shopping because it;s not as if that's part of her enjoying your mum's company, but it does cut you out and make your mum more dependent on her.

As if sounds as if your mum might take umbrage at the suggestion she can't spot a scam artist, I would frame this around YOU feeling left out and wanting to take back the jobs you used to do. No need to mention how suspicious and weird it is for a random perosn to get involved in her admin, just say that you would really like to do it for her. As a PP said, this just leaves Anne more time to do fun, social things with your mum. Perhaps you could request that she make you a special something from her craft hobby and then Anne could help her with that instead of the shopping?

I would also pop in unannounced some time...

She explained it was no problem and she loves helping my mother

To which my reply would be "So do i!"

By taking over these tasks, Anne has very neatly cut you out from the 'inner circle' hasn't she?
How old is Anne? One would assume that she would look for a job to alleviate her 'hard life' now that her kids are in school full time
It's one thing to help somebody out, quite another to do that AND spend all your spare time with that person too.
She's taking over the 'carer' role that you are happy to do!

I've be wondering if she's trying to wangle becoming your mum's official 'carer', spinning it like "Wouldn't it be great - i can still help you and get paid for it and we get to hang out all day!"
If she does have ulterior motives then this kind of manipulation will be easy for her.
Your mum would just think she was doing her friend a favour because 'the tasks needed doing anyway'.

My suggestions -
Tell your mum that you were actually enjoying doing these little tasks for her, that it made you feel closer to her, that you were happy to be able to help her after all the things she's done for you.....basically anything that pulls on her heartstrings

I'd say this is one of those occasions where some subtle emotional blackmail is called for
(You could try this on Anne too if it helps)

Appeal to her rational side - doing these tasks gives you a good understanding of your mums needs, and if you are the one who will ultimately be dealing with her will/estate/POA then it makes sense to keep you involved.

Or go round as you usually would, take note of what needs doing and when and then pre-empt Anne.

Last option ramp up the emotional blackmail- you could burst into tears claiming you're feeling 'pushed out'

Why not drop by Anne's house with a gift and a card to say thank you for helping your mum out see how the land lies I would

i would ask your mum how the shopping works. who pays? and suss out whether anne is sneaking money. if you suspect she is, can you make up some excuse for needing to look at statements / utilities? then go from there.

i'd also pop over when anne is there and try and get more sense of the woman. i'd also tell her that you want to do the admin and shopping as she is your mum and it's not appropriate that she does it. make sure anne knows that your mum has someone looking out, and very carefully at her too.

if she's dodge she might get cold feet and back off a bit.

I had a great aunt fall foul of a 'friend' like this - wiped her out completely and then disappeared when all the money had gone.
If Anne is the nice woman that she portrays then she will completely understand why you want to look after your mum yourself.
I would approach her and see if she does have a good side.

I would HOPE my dd cares enough to look out for my welfare when I'm older. I think setting up a poa at 60 is an excellent idea. And I'm only 15 years away from that. I would hope people also have wills written well before there can be any question of competency.

OP, I agree with setting up POA and online banking. Obviously, your mum should access to banking, however, if she is anything like my mum. she would never actually use it.

We had this for my mum. My sister took overall responsibility for my mum's finances, monitoring investments, etc, but my mum was in control of monthly bills, credit card etc and had a huge cushion in case anything came up. My sister would log on every week to check everything out. If there was an unexpected withdrawal, sis would ask my mum what it was for. (Usually a donation to a charity that my mum was in the habit of supporting.)

Just to be clear - hidden cameras should not be hidden from your mum. She should know they are there, obviously.
Hidden from potential scamming arseholes, absolutely.

I met her once briefly, I was just leaving as she arrived. We had a little chat I apologised for dashing off. ( I had children to collect from school.) she made a comment like she was always busy and if you want a job doing always ask a busy person. Which seemed like a throw away remark at the time.

Op you need to find out of your DM, what exactly is her friend doing.
Does she have a key?
House alarm code?
PIN numbers?
Bank account details?

The world is a sad, sad place when it comes to this!

I had a lovely neighbour, over 20 year my senior. When I realise she could not get out on Sundays, as there are no buses, I started going and sitting with her on Sunday afternoons. We would watch a film together.

Then she started to become frail. She had a stroke, I called the ambulance, after using my key to get in. She came home, my DP helped with heavier shopping, although she went out every day. I visited every evening.

I found her again, having had another stroke, called an ambulance, then went back to looking after her the same way when she came home. Then again! Then, she had a stroke back earlier this year, did not come home, instead went in a home nearby. I visited her there three times a week. All this time, I looked after her dog for her.

Then she got moved to a home near her son. She died shortly after. I went to her funeral. Her family have shown me nothing by gratitude for the help and support I gave her.

I would have hated to think they suspected me of wrong doing. Yes, sometimes I would help her with some financial stuff, asking the gas and electric company not to reduce her payments in Summer as she worried about owing money come Winter, things like that.

I think I might actually feel sorry for Anne!

Ok, she might be a scammer...... but most people actually aren't. Some are just nice! I'm nice. I have shopped, banked, sorted benefits, cleaned, and generally been company for people who I'm not related to. In actuality its very common for elderly people to be fleeced by their own family.

Lots of elderly people don't like bothering their own family, maybe mum thinks OP is a busy woman and has enough on her plate?

OP says Mum gets 'flustered' with her admin. So do I sometimes, doesn't mean I don't work it out in the end though. I certainly wouldn't welcome one of my kids putting their oar in.

Cameras..... without Mums knowledge. Very illegal and probably best avoided unless OP fancies a NC relationship with her Mother?!?

Just watch and wait from a distance.

The thing which sticks out for me is that OP mentioned that she should return to once again doing these things for her own mum and "Anne" brushed her off

If her motive really is to spend pleasant times with the mum, why would she object to something which would increase that time, rather than spending it on admin?

Mamma - but you had the blessing and trust of the family. Plus you were a neighbour so they could see you going about your normal business next door whereas Anne is someone op's mum has met from a craft group. Quite a few differences in circumstance.

If scanners are going to scam in these circumstances, how would they do it? Befriend an old person. Start involving themselves in her finances despite unease from the family. Start making themselves indispensable. Yes Anne could be totally innocent. But equally she might not be and Op is right to look out for her mum.

I would be calling in regularly when she is there so she knows your dm has someone very involved in her life and keeping a close eye on her affairs. My dsis works as a nurse with the elderly and sees a lot of people trying to take advantage.

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses. I am so sad for those of you who have had bad experiences, but I'm so grateful that you have shared them. I am still hopeful, for my mothers sake, that Anne may be that rare thing - a genuinely good and caring person. Nevertheless I am going to visit my Mum this evening and broach the subject of POA.
I am also going to do more spot checks at my Mums, in the hope of seeing more of Anne.
I will keep you posted,
Thank you all again.
Ps
For those who asked I am an only child. My Mum appears to be totally in command of her mental capacity although she is 88, she has never liked paper work, my dad always took care of everything. She held down a job as a head teacher for 30 years when OFSTED had never even been dreamt of!