Is this unreasonable punishment from Teacher of 5 year old?

[sharond101]

DS is 5. He has never been in trouble before, not really but there was incident at school yesterday and a boy told him to pull down a little girl's pants which he did and she told the Teacher. He had his picture put on a dark cloud on the wall and given Time Out which meant yesterday and today he spent playtime in the class without adult supervision drawing pictures whilst the other children played outdoors. What has really annoyed me though is that when the Teacher returned after breaktime she took his picture off him and put it in the bin. He is very upset. Says he doesn't want to go to school and that she (teacher) shouts all the time.

If this happened in my class, punishment would not be my first aim but making sure the child understood it was very wrong.
This. And I'm the mother of three girls.

WHY didn't the school inform the boy's parents?
WHAT will the boy learn from this? That it's wrong to pull down another child's pants, or to expose private parts. I don't think I'd explicitly told my kids this at that age.
OR WILL he just remember the teacher throwing his drawing in the bin?

Yes, he needed to be punished - but also educated. Starting school can be scary. Little kids do daft things. YES they need to be taught it's wrong, and why. NO they don't need to be so intimidated that they're scared to go back and learn.

This was very poorly handled.

WTF Willow2017?

*mrlovebucket absolutely. It sounds very much that op has taken these events direct from the child, which I find worrying. DH is a head teacher and the parents of the 3 children would have been informed. While I'm sure there's mumsnetters who will think this is overkill but it's actually standard practice now for good reason.

He is only 5 but old enough to understand boundaries with private areas. He was told to do it by another child and it may well have been giggles all round. However, although not a safeguarding issue from what op has said it would certainly be 'logged' and all parents contacted. Keeping him in for one break is a common protocol in punishment , it's highly unlikely this would be unsupervised. Many schools have open plan areas and may not have been aware he wasn't alone. If -on the other hand- he was alone this would not be acceptable , keeping him in for two days in a row would also not be an acceptable form of punishment unless there's more to the story than we know. I'm doubtful a teacher would have thrown his drawings away, they may well have been scribbles to get through the time!

As I've said , this would be something that all parents would be made aware of. I'm sure he didn't understand the enormity of what he did , children's understanding of right and wrong varies hence the importance of information passing onto parents. In DH school he would also have had a chat about personal boundaries direct with DS , his friend and the girl. I would be surprised if any of them where not aware of it being wrong but it clearly needs reinforcement with explanation.

I think OP should also put herself in the shoes of the girl's parents. Of course the child may have seen it as part of play and not been bothered, in which case she also needs to be made aware of personal boundaries. Unfortunately a similar situation happened with 1DD (now an adult) when she was 6. Over the next two years she had huge issues at school and around getting changed for PE. She ended up having counselling in school.

Op whilst of course you are very concerned about your son the bigger picture needs to be seen here, one that you have the full story from the school and not just your DS.

I'm so angry reading this. Your precious little darling had a picture put in the bin and feels sad about it? Good, he should feel bad, he needs to realise how serious what he did is.

As a parent of two girls I would be fucking raging if a boy did this to one of mine. It's really serious, and you are just Molly coddling him and blaming the girl for 'telling'. I can see why he feels it's ok to behave like that. You need to look at how you've dealt with this situation fast.

Like a lot of posters I am concerned about your reaction to this incident.

You really sound like you're storing up a lot of trouble for yourself and your son in the future.

I very much doubt he was left unsupervised, he probably didn't know someone was keeping an eye on him and also was he meant to be drawing? Maybe he had been told to do something else.

If he had been supervised, the supervisor would have seen that he was drawing and redirected him to whatever task had been set.

I am inclined to believe that he was not supervised and that the teacher threw the picture in the bin out of spite.

Bettyspants - very good point there that the parents of all three children should have been told. The girl's parents in particular should have been told, but this is something that would have warranted a phone call from school to all the parents concerned during the school day in my DCs' elementary school.

He is five and has only been at school or two weeks.
No one's saying he shouldn't be disciplined for the incident but that wasn't the way to do it for a child of that age.

I don't believe he was left alone in the classroom - how can you trust a 5 year old boy unsupervised in a classroom? He could have trashed the place or wandered out... Throwing the drawing away in front of him was wrong (unless it was a picture of him pulling down the girl's pants...), as that just makes it more likely he will remember how horrible the teacher is rather than how unacceptable pulling a girl's pants down is. It is very odd that the teacher did not speak to you directly about the incident, though, as it is utterly unacceptable behaviour to pull down another child's pants and all parents should have been informed of what happened and what the school was doing about it.

I'm appalled by the OP's attitude to this incident.

At 5 years old her child should know that other people's pants are out of bounds.

At 5 years old her child should know that "someone else told me to" is never a valid excuse for bad behaviour.

If my son had done this at 5 yo I would have been very upset and disappointed with him and at minimum he'd have been writing a letter of apology to the girl. I wouldn't be the least bit sympathetic to his binned picture.

OP your child publicly humiliated that little girl. That's where your focus should be!!

I'm quite embarrassed on your behalf that you are whining about his picture.

To be fair, what he did to that little girl is truly awful and I feel that you aren't taking it seriously enough. Yes he is five but he humiliated that poor girl who is also probably the same age. She started school and within two weeks some child humiliated her and exposed her genitals, Imagine how you would feel if you were her mum. Think he got off very lightly and that you feeling sympathy for him is inherently wrong.
The poor girl probably isn't keen on returning to school through no fault of her own. He is not some special snowflake he did something very very unkind and think you need to take it far more seriously, he IS NOT the victim here.

As a mother of 2 boys (as everyone else mentions they have daughters - doesn't matter what sex your children are). I would be mortified if my son did this and quite frankly the picture being thrown away is the least of your concerns. I would be backing the school up on this. Obviously keep an eye on the teacher if she's a sadist but I highly doubt it.

OP your child publicly humiliated that little girl. That's where your focus should be!!

I agree entirely. You're going on about his drawing being thrown in the bin. He knew what he did was wrong as did the other boy. Tough - he needs to learn that when you do wrong then punishment isn't going to be nice.

I actually don't think I would have thrown his drawing in the bin in front of him - if indeed it was any kind of special drawing - was it?

But your whole attitude screams 'IDGAF' re that little girl being humiliated and upset. & you'd better hope she doesn't eventually tell her parents and they don't come down on you like a ton of bricks - because I would.

& all you can worry about is your DS and his bloody picture. After you'd finished the there there never mind comforting, I hope you had a very clear talk with him regarding other people's privacy, personal space and dignity, and he is not to ever do such a thing again

She started school and within two weeks some child humiliated her and exposed her genitals, Imagine how you would feel if you were her mum

^ This, too

Awful.

& OP perhaps your talk with your DC should also include not being easily led into bad behaviour. Or it won't bode well for him and you'll have far more to worry about than a teacher throwing his drawing away

Op simple question - have you been over the underwear rule with your son?

I'm also horrified at your attitude. I have a 4 year old who has just started school and if he came home and said that he had pulled someone's pants down and been punished I would be appalled that he had pulled someone's pants down! Having a drawing thrown in the bin is nothing in comparison.

Thinking about it I highly suspect your DS was left unsupervised and the teacher has not spoken to you about it hoping your son won't. What most posters on here are failing to do (which I don't think you are), in typical mumsnet, all teachers are amazing (quite frankly all should qualify for sainthood - well they would if they werent secularists) all men inc 5 year old boys are evil sex pests, girls are irrevocably damaged by contact with men. Is to separate the two issues. Yes. As you have said what your son did was wrong. This needs dealing with in an age appropriate way. By explaining the issue, by making him apologise to the girl and maybe withdrawing say one playtime or other privledge such as missing his turn at something. This could ,and I suspect would have been backed up by you). You have not asked whether what you son did was wrong as everyone agrees it was. The other issue, which I think is entirely separate is the schools handling of the situation, and the one about which you have asked the question you should have been informed, nothing the teacher was doing (unless they were administering CPR) was too important at pick up to stop them discussing this with you. The punishment was inappropriate for a 5 year old, verging on vengeful. At 5 there was no sexual context to what your son did. It is not a sexual safeguarding issue. The way the teacher handled this means your son is unlikely to remember why he got punished and the ott nature of it means that that is what he will remember about it not the issue about how he was unkind and upset another child. I highly suspect the teacher knows they acted inappropriately hence you haven't been told. Also don't necessarily expect the truth from the teacher about your son being left alone, adults are even more capable of lying to protect their own backsides than a five year old. When you speak to the school make sure you keep the two issues separate as they are. And putting a 5 year olds picture on the wAll in a black cloud. What the fuck do they do at junior level put them in the stocks on the playground? At 5 a punishment should be about education not vengeance. I'm appalled but not surprised by the attitude of mumsnetters towards a 5 year old. I notice most of the teachers on here think the teacher acted in an ott manner. If you get no joy from the school, escalate. I would also speak to the girls parenfs, explain what you are doing about your son and explain that your action against the school does not in any way reflect how serious you and your son are treating what has happened to their daughter (insert how you have handled this at home) but explain the lack of communication, leaving your child unattended and prolonged punishment. They probably haven't been informed either so maybe unite over the appalling lack of communication. Good luck. I think you are rightly angry about the handing of the situation.

I would also speak to the girls parenfs, explain what you are doing about your son and explain that your action against the school does not in any way reflect how serious you and your son are treating what has happened to their daughter

Seriously!

As a mother of DD and if you did it to mine I wouldn't entertain you tbh

Definitely ask the school for more information.

The teacher will not just be being individually cruel, she will be following school sanctions. This will no doubt be outlined in the school handbook which I'm sure you can see if you ask.

I have worked in many schools and have never known pupils to be left unsupervised (and I largely worked in secondary) so find it very unlikely. A teacher may have been watching him from where he couldn't see. Seems odd for the picture to be thrown away, doesn't make it right but maybe she just did it thoughtlessly as thought he had just been doodling? Definitely find out more though.

He did something very wrong.
He got a punishment.
Be glad it wasn't a harsher punishment!

I hope you learn to parent and not look for excuses. This is very concerning. I truly hope our children do not meet in any circumstance.

I would speak to the school to find out what your son did as they should tell you when it is so serious.

I doubt the picture in the bin is as bad as he makes out and it is difficult to mention it without sounding like you are more concerned with that than your son's actions.

Iwanttobe8stoneagain
Someone has a teacher chip on their shoulder. There are hundreds of threads where people mouth off about teachers. Nobody thinks they are 'saints' or perfect. The only people who have the view that teachers/nurses/social workers are wrongly given some kind of professional respect are people with chips on their shoulders and axws to grind.

If it was dealt with in school, then it's dealt with in school.
We don't know whether he was unsupervised, or whether he was in a classroom and slmeone could see through the door whilst thr tracher nipped to the toilet. We don't know if he should have been drawing.
It's also telling that it's only as soon as he is in trouble we've got the 'and the teacher is mean and shouts ALL the time'. (Something I hear every year from pupils, even accusing staff of shouting when I've just been outaide the door and know for a fact it's not. I've even had students take reslonsibility for actions only to get a phone call telling me 'MY child says... and HE WOULDNT LIE'.

Bottom line: teachers aren't perfect, but anyone with an ounce of sense knows that kids can and do lie to get out of trouble.

At 5 there was no sexual context to what your son did. It is not a sexual safeguarding issue
Under safeguarding we would be professionally obliged to fill in a concern form for that.
Unfortunately, evidence suggests that children not having boundaries with others is one of the sigbs of abuse.
We would have to report all issues like that to the safeguarding lead. It may be nothing, it may be something.

As a former teacher I feel this teacher's reaction and punishments are completely over the top. At 5, how is he supposed to know that what he did is wrong? For a 'first offence' I'd explain why it was an unkind thing to do and expect him not to do it again. To keep him in at playtimes is an overreaction if he's never done this before and throwing away his drawing is plain cruel.

I agree with you Nutty.

At 5 and a first offence there should be an explanation from the teacher on why this behaviour isn't nice or acceptable and also why a chlld shouldn't just blindly follow the instructions of another child but learn to think for himself.

There is an opportunity for learning here for this little boy who is only 2 weeks into what, reception or Year 1? Imo detention and throwing his picture in the bin is over the top and unecessarily unkind.
What would have been better would have been to have had a serious word with child about his behaviour and consequences and ask him to make a suitable reparation to the little girl, an apology, draw her a picture to say sorry, etc.

All those talking about 'this is why we have disobedient and uncontrollable children nowadays due to parents jumping to said child's defence blah blah blah are completely unreasonable.
OP is doing exactly the right thing by her 5 year old child... talk to the teacher, put son's point of view across, get to the bottom of the story and work together to ensure this sort of incident does not happen again. But keep it in perspective, the kid is 5 and still learning acceptable social conduct and empathy for others.

Last year 2 boys decided to pull down DS trousers on the playground (they were year 2 so slightly older)

Teacher spoke to me about it at pick up time. Parents on the other two where called into school by the head (I could have met with the head but felt it had been dealt with so no need) they also missed playtime for a while from what DS said.

Ds has massive social problems already and that incident really knocked his confidence back on the playground.

Hopefully your DS will now realise just how wrong his behaviour was so won't do anything similar again.