Is this unreasonable punishment from Teacher of 5 year old?

[sharond101]

DS is 5. He has never been in trouble before, not really but there was incident at school yesterday and a boy told him to pull down a little girl's pants which he did and she told the Teacher. He had his picture put on a dark cloud on the wall and given Time Out which meant yesterday and today he spent playtime in the class without adult supervision drawing pictures whilst the other children played outdoors. What has really annoyed me though is that when the Teacher returned after breaktime she took his picture off him and put it in the bin. He is very upset. Says he doesn't want to go to school and that she (teacher) shouts all the time.

Until we have the teacher's version it is a bit pointless as currently the only information was teased out of a 5 year old

It is possible that the teacher will speak to the op tomorrow if for some reason she was unable to speak to her at pick up.

'bad parenting' really? A 5yr old made a misteak, like all of us do. Its not down to bad parenting

Yes, bad parenting. Instead of taking this as an opportunity to educate her DS, OP is blaming the other boy who, according to DS, "told" him to pull down the pants of the girl. Not only that, instead of focusing on educating her DS, OP chooses to confront the teacher, because... ohh the horror! What about Dsnowflake's confidence! Irresponsible bad parenting.

You need to speak to the school before you decide anything. I very much doubt he was left unsupervised, he probably didn't know someone was keeping an eye on him and also was he meant to be drawing? Maybe he had been told to do something else.

You definitely need to be having a serious discussion with him about appropriate behaviour.

If the teacher did throw the picture in the bin for no reason other than to be nasty then that isn't acceptable.

But I don't think you can complain about his confidence being effected, I imagine the confidence of the little girl has been impacted more!

You need to think about the little girl, not your son. What he did to her was far worse than what happened to him. There is no way you should be storming into the school complaining. What sort of reputation do you want to get for yourself and your son? He should be making a grovelling apology to that poor girl and you should be talking to him about how completely inappropriate his behaviour was. And don't blame the other boy. It's your son that did the deed.

Its not going to be on a criminal record for the rest of his life

Exactly, nor should it. And this is why it is SOOO important that OP takes responsibility. In the long run, it's not going to matter to DS what the teacher says, unless DM tells him that what he did was wrong. It appears that OP is not convinced that Dsnowflake was responsible, given that he only did what the other boy told him to.

"a boy told him to"

"when the Teacher returned after breaktime she took his picture off him and put it in the bin"

"and that she (teacher) shouts all the time"

But why would you believe any of that? He's 5. It's not really even lying, they often don't know they've made it up. Every kid who's ever been in trouble said another kid told them to and the teacher was mean to them.

You listen to their worries, reinforce the right behaviour and tell them it's OK to make mistakes.

He did something fairly serious and got punished. I wouldn't assume any of the other stuff happened unless there was a pattern of concern with the teacher.

"ask why I wasn't informed about it" Because the teacher didn't think you needed to be- why would they? He was naughty and then punished. The teacher figured there was no wider concern. Perhaps you are used to a nursery with many more staff. Teachers aren't given time to do much out of class so have to prioritise.

It does strike me as odd that the school hasn't contacted the OP about this. It strikes me as very odd that this happened yesterday and the OP hasn't even tried to speak to the school to find out what's going on. That would have been my first action, as a responsible parent, in order to actually find out the truth of the matter rather than go on the word of an upset 5 year old

Smells like bullshit to me.

If this happened in my class, punishment would not be my first aim but making sure the child understood it was very wrong.

This. I'm very saddened at the number of posters on this thread who seem to be concerned about vengeance on a 5 yr old child. It's not about making him suffer as much as his victim, it's about teaching him so he doesn't do it again. And I say that with 2 kids who've been almost always on the receiving end of the bad behaviour.

OP can be concerned about the punishment and still deal with the original incident seriously with her child. (Though as PPs have said, that would be a deal easier for OP to do if the teacher had actually informed her of what happened so she didn't have to rely on the word of said 5 yr old. )

I think it's difficult for the mother of a daughter to be objective about this. If a little boy had pulled my DD's pants down in her first two weeks at school I would be extremely angry and upset and would want to be sure the school had taken steps to ensure it would never happen again.

Frankly I would want them to put the fear of God in the boy who did that. Throwing away his picture would seem small beer.

I remember when I was that age two boys in my class tripped me up then lifted my skirt to look at my knickers and told everyone In the playground what colour they were. Not as bad as having them pulled down but 50 years later I still remember how humiliated I felt.

However I lived in a small village so rather than going through the school my mother confronted the boys next time she saw them and gave them a rollicking.

@mathanxiety

"The other child needs to be on the radar of the child welfare officer at this point."

Which kid? The poor girl who got pantsed? The child who allegedly told him to do it? The only child exhibiting concerning behaviour is the OPs, but no one's going to be referring him to specialists yet because he's 5 and did something stupid, once.

"Leaving a child unsupervised in a classroom as punishment is a breach of safety regs"

Gosh, more than one. Could you link to those please?

"Restriction of playtime - not fine for more than one day and it has to be supervised time out."

That's very specific. What would he have to do to earn two break time detentions? You sound very sure- perhaps you should post your sliding scale of acceptable punishments so teachers and parents everywhere can benefit. Up until now I been using my own judgement with my children- just because I'm there and responsible. I bet the teacher did the same; what a fool.

"cruelty involved in throwing out his picture"

I hadn't realised you were present and witnessed it all. Because there is no way a functional adult would make such absolute and certain pronouncements based on the second hand account of a 5 year old.

Well, at least you've given me a laugh.

Urgh.

As a parent of girls, your post has utterly infuriated me, OP.

I don't give a fuck about his picture.

"ask why I wasn't informed about it" Because the teacher didn't think you needed to be- why would they? He was naughty and then punished. The teacher figured there was no wider concern. Perhaps you are used to a nursery with many more staff. Teachers aren't given time to do much out of class so have to prioritise.
Eh? This would be top priority at my kids' school. As a rule of thumb, anything that results in a 5 yr old being kept in at break, parents need to know. Child is going to be upset and you're going to need to reinforce the reason for the punishment at home. As demonstrated - OP took 2 evenings to work out what the problem was when she could have been supporting the behavioural issue. I've been called in for far more minor things.

My older son was prone to do things 'Because Ben told me to do it'. Ben was a very streetwise kid, who I think got a certain amount of enjoyment out of seeing my DS get into trouble. DS had to learn (from talking to us) that if someone tells you to do it that isn't an excuse for doing the wrong thing, especially something unkind.

Putting the picture in the bin was unkind, but teachers can do unkind and thoughtless things as well, I moved my younger son to another school when I worked out he had a 50:50 chance of getting a teacher who appeared to have a pathological dislike of small children in every remaining junior school year! But this is just one of the things that is different about being at school. I was absolutely heartbroken to be told off for scribbling on a desk with a wax crayon by the deputy head, however the next week she came in and said my picture was lovely and the class teacher - who really didn't like me very much - put it up on the wall, so that made up for it.

To be honest, the thing I'd find most upsetting if I were your son would be having my picture put in a big black cloud! What on earth is that meant to signify????

The only child exhibiting concerning behaviour is the OPs, but no one's going to be referring him to specialists yet because he's 5 and did something stupid, once

Agreed, because unless it involved more than just pulling knickers down he's not going to be deemed to be exhibiting sexualised behaviour and referred to social services.

I am a bit at the OP for not teaching her child that people interfering with your underwear is not okay. I'd have thought that was basic safeguarding of your own child. Had he been taught this it's highly unlikely he would have pulled the girl's knickers down.

OP needs to take some responsibility here instead of bleating on about an alleged crumpled drawing.

Bloody hell. Some of the comments on here I find more alarming than what a five year old did. "I'd want he fear of God put in him" really? A five year old? Yes what he did was wrong but I think people are tryinh to assign a level of emotional intelligence and sexualisation to a small child that is completely inappropriate. He's not some 13 year old over hormoned kid trying to get off on a sneak peek. He's a very young child that very wrongly thought it would be funny. He needs it very adequately explaining that what he did was unkind just like pulling off a coat would be or hitting someone. Talk of putting the fear of God into him or safeguarding issues like he is some sort of sex pest quite frankly is worrying to say the least. Anyone assigning that sort of level of malice and sexual
Motivation to a 5 year old is a bit sick. Once again a 5 year old is not a mini adult. Why wasn't op informed by the school? The lack of communication here is astounding and by far the biggest worry. Have the girls parents been informed I wonder?

she shouldn't have thrown out the picture but you need to come down hard on this too. not sure if this has been said as i havent rtft in its entirety but he needs to write the girl a letter of apology.

He needs it very adequately explaining that what he did was unkind just like pulling off a coat would be or hitting someone.

Deliberately forcing down a girls pants is more than 'unkind and certainly different to pulling off a coat!

He has never been in trouble before, not really
What does "not really" mean? I'd guess that he has done things that would have merited a sanction, but hasn't "got into trouble" with you over. You haven't indicated that he's "in trouble" with you over this incident.

a boy told him to
So says a 5-year-old who is trying to get mummy to take his side against the teacher. Best to clarify this with the teacher, you may find that there was no other boy involved or the boy named was an innocent by-stander/ scape-goat.

If he was doing something another child told him to, you need to teach him not to. He should have told the teacher that X had told him to pull down the girl's pants, not actually done it.

and she told the Teacher
Sounds like you are blaming the girl for getting your child into trouble.

she took his picture off him and put it in the bin.
There may be a missing piece of the story here, e.g. was he told to sit at a table and shouldn't have been drawing, or told to put the picture away and didn't...

He is very upset.
This a distraction to deflect your anger away from him (and it's working, isn't it?)

Says he doesn't want to go to school
He expects you to pander to this. He needs to realise that going to school is non-negotiable, as is not pulling down other children's underwear.

she (teacher) shouts all the time.
Or has told him off firmly more than once? Perhaps he'd better start doing as he is told.

You need to talk calmly to the teacher and work out how you will tackle this together. Be prepared to hear that you haven't got the whole story from your child. Doesn't mean he is lying, just he has only told you the bits he remembers or thinks are relevant.

Good luck - only another 6 years and 180 days of primary school to get through.

Yes op needs to speak with teacher but the teacher should have actually spoken to her first
I would apologise to the little girls parents though if I were you. You're in primary school for a long time without bad feeling because you haven't said sorry.
But I stand by the binning the picture is a bully move and would be asking to speak to the head of year tomorrow morning.
He's 5, things happen, he will learn but not by being bullied he won't

Why would either child need to be seen by child welfare officer? What a stupid thing to say which makes no sense at all!

He's 5, things happen

Not sure forcibly pulling down someone's pants falls into a 'things happen' category tbh!

I am in my mid-30s and still remember with fury the time a teacher threw some of my work in the bin when I was 9.

If he’s in Year 1, there’s no way I would be letting him sit and draw what he liked during a punishment. Kids ASK to be allowed to stay in and draw. So I don’t have much sympathy for a picture being thrown away when he’s sat there in trouble. Maybe he was asked to make an apology card and drew himself playing in the playground - you really don’t know. Consequences stretching out over more than one day seems excessive unless I suppose it came across as knowingly malicious, cruel and lacking in remorse. Weird that you weren’t told about it though.

I am in my mid-30s and still remember with fury the time a teacher threw some of my work in the bin when I was 9.

awww (((hugs))) build a bridge and get over it

imagine how you'd feel if someone had pulled your pants down in the playground