Is this unreasonable punishment from Teacher of 5 year old?

[sharond101]

DS is 5. He has never been in trouble before, not really but there was incident at school yesterday and a boy told him to pull down a little girl's pants which he did and she told the Teacher. He had his picture put on a dark cloud on the wall and given Time Out which meant yesterday and today he spent playtime in the class without adult supervision drawing pictures whilst the other children played outdoors. What has really annoyed me though is that when the Teacher returned after breaktime she took his picture off him and put it in the bin. He is very upset. Says he doesn't want to go to school and that she (teacher) shouts all the time.

that strangling a baby was* wrong

MrLovebucket you have to draw a legal line somewhere. The seriousness and emotional impact of the crime does not alter the cognitive ability of the perpetrator.

I personally think 10 is too young to fully understand the complexities of right & wrong but have no desire to get into an argument on such an emotive topic as the James Bulger case.

Newdaddie -exactly right. Im not surprised the OP hasn't come back with some of the hatred "put the fear of God into him" "give him a thrashing" " safeguarding issue" basically stating her little boy is a liar, advocating holding grudges rather than parents sorting things out and comments about its likely the girls parents would beat up the boys parents. Remember this is a five year old not as someone said a 50 year old paedophile.

No one is arguing that what the boy did was wrong. But advocating or justifying physical and psychological damage to a very small child and his parents is disgusting.

It's pathetic that in commenting about a Five year old child making a naughty mistake, grown adults are reacting in such a violent and hostile way to a small child. Also a bit ironic that people so very concerned with safeguarding issues are basically coming out and saying the boy is very obviously lying as a teacher would never behave in such a way. Just play that back and think about the consequences of teaching a small child that.

Op if you are still reading this (I don't blame you if you're not) I think your gut reaction to this was correct. You know your child, some people on here are typing things far worse than anything your very young child has done. I hope it gets resolved.

He has never been in trouble before, not really

This too will be shoved in the category of "not really". Even before speaking to teacher, OP is already laying the foundation for excusing Dsnowflake:
-it's "the other boy's" fault -- he "told" DS to pull the girls' pants
-DS is just 5
-Anyway, the pants-pulling incident is obviously a minor thing, but the teacher's behavior! She threw away DS's drawing!! What's that going to do to DS's confidence?! WIBU to go in to school tomorrow and have a go at her?

plantsitter I appreciate that you have to set an age for criminal responsibility. I don't think it's useful to suggest that any child below that age has no concept of right and wrong.

it's interesting that different countries have vastly different ages set when it comes to criminal responsibility. Surely if science proves that 10 is the magic number then all countries should adopt that age?

www.unicef.org/pon97/p56a.htm

The problem is, all the people labelling the child as a potential sex offender or rapist are playing into OPs hands too, by overreacting.
Her son did wrong, he was punished.

The strange thing about this is that if the OP hadn't managed to 'tease out' the account of what happened from her DS, she wouldn't have known anything about it. The teacher hasn't said anything. Doesn't that strike anyone as odd?

I think you go with what you decide frankly. And if as a country we've decided that is the age we can be accountable for our actions, then before that age we have to stick to the idea that 'punishment' is not helpful and children who commit crimes need help to change. I don't think the seriousness of the crime should affect that (although you obviously have to consider potential 'victims').

However I don't class a 5 year old boy pulling a girl's knickers down as a crime. I don't think he would be capable of fully understanding why it was wrong. But I do think he needs to be told that it was. On that I think we agree.

NewDaddie how old is your DD?

Because I can assure you that I held my children accountable for their actions at 5 years old (and at 4 and at 3)

If your 5 yo hits/bites/bullies another child, if your 5 yo lies/steals/breaks things wouldn't you hold them accountable for those actions?

Because your job as a parent is to make sure that they know well before 5 years old that none of those things are acceptable.

Apart from anything else other children will hold your child accountable and choose their friendships accordingly.

plantsitter I agree that this little boy didn't commit a crime, not even close to it.

It's interesting to note that Scotland sets the age of criminal responsibility at 8 rather than 10. Are children living in Scotland cognitively advanced compared to other children in the UK?

If a 9 year old child throws a cup of boiling hot coffee in another child's face do you think they don't realise that is wrong? Of course they do, they know it is going to hurt the other child. They are unlikely to realise the full consequences of the action (potential permanent scarring, plastic surgery, long term pain etc.) but that doesn't mean they don't know damn well that their actions will cause pain and distress. I don't think it's helpful to excuse them because they aren't 10 yet so they don't know what they are doing is what I'm trying to say.

Sounds to me like he didn't take the missed playtime very seriously, wandered off to do some colouring because it looked like fun and the teacher took it off him.

Nobody missing playtime in my class gets to do anything fun like colouring and if they try to get anything like that out it gets whipped away from them pretty quick with a sharp explanation of why they're not getting fun activities right now.

OP I think you are already minimising this and putting it into the category of "not in trouble really".

@Barbie222, yes that does make sense. But wouldn't you speak to his mum about it? I've been told when my DDs have been in trouble (thankfully very rarely).

And if he wondered off and started colouring why did no teacher stop him. Or is he telling the truth and was actually not supervised?

If your 5 yo hits/bites/bullies another child, if your 5 yo lies/steals/breaks things wouldn't you hold them accountable for those actions?
Because your job as a parent is to make sure that they know well before 5 years old that none of those things are acceptable.

Exactly.

Pulling down the pants of a girl strikes me as more troubling than any of the behavior you listed. If a 5yo is frustrated, he hits. If he is thinks he is about to get in trouble, he lies. Normal behavior. But pulling the pants of another in public is rarer and seem to be motivated by a desire to shame. The sad thing is that often the victims are the kids who are already vulnerable -- have few friends, quieter, smaller, less confident, maybe have a speech impediment or something that they are self conscious about, etc.

In case Sharon returns, DM of girls here. If I found out that OP's DS had done this to any of my DSD/DDs and then his Mummy had run snivelling to the school about his Great Work of Art being binned I would be livid. I'd wind my neck in OP, your DS will be spending several years with these children. I suggest a crash course in right from wrong, appropriate behaviour and humility when you are punished for a misdeed for DS and accepting responsibility for your sons upbringing and behaviour for you.

Your son is not the victim here.

The only really worrying thing about this thread is the fact the OP hasn't even tried to speak to the school about it.

You mean, apart from when she said she was going to talk to the school about it? People seem to be ignoring most of what the OP actually said (like the part where she said if she was the parent of the girl she would be angry, and it was right her son was punished? Everyone raging about Op 'victim blaming' just ignored that?); and have decided to pile on like an angry mob and blame OP and her 5 year old son for the entire history of violence against women.

I'm due to give birth to a boy soon and this thread has bloody terrified me. I had no idea this many fully grown adults could turn so vicious towards a small child, fully convinced of their own moral righteousness. It's horrible.

Sounds to me like he didn't take the missed playtime very seriously, wandered off to do some colouring because it looked like fun and the teacher took it off him

Well obviously he couldnt possibly have done that as so many people are insisting he was supervised all the time.

Idk what being a mother of girls vs boys has to do with it, I'd be mortified/furious if my sons did this or it was done to them.
It was the "I don't think this will boost his confidence!" And "she threw away his artwork!" That got to me. In a post Brock turner world, we need to be drilling bodily autonomy/keeping hands to yourself into our kids from an early age (the right way. He should have been told why this was so wrong in a way he can understand, by both parents and teachers). It may sound dramatic to a lot of people, but there are a whole heap of parents out there very quick to excuse their kids with "oh don't be so hard on the poor dear! It's really no big deal, he's only 5/10/high school age/lets all calm down now"
OP this is a perfect opportunity to have this discussion. No I wouldn't crucify him, he's only five, but it very important to start now and catch it the first time and not make any excuses.

We can only go by what the OP has posted and our own experiences.

The OP only has her child's version of what happened.

I hope the OP has been into school and found out what really happened and is working with the school to ensure her little boy has learnt not to do it again.

You mean, apart from when she said she was going to talk to the school about it?

I meant that she hadn't done so already

It happened on Wednesday yet she still hadn't spoken to the school when she posted this thread on Thursday evening.

MrLove

He didn't come home and tell me all this. He has been quiet last night and cried about going this morning as he said he had a sore tummy. Tonight he was really quiet again and it had to be teased out of him.

Is reading everything the Op has actually said before piling into her really that hard?

What your ds did was horrible and I'm glad the teacher took it seriously. In my day, they didn't. Having said that, the business with the picture seems spiteful and counter productive. I'd prefer your ds was made to apologise to the girl in question.

@Flying - fair point, well made - I missed that comment, my apologies to OP.

I'm due to give birth to a boy soon and this thread has bloody terrified me. I had no idea this many fully grown adults could turn so vicious towards a small child, fully convinced of their own moral righteousness. It's horrible.

No need to be terrified. Majority of posters are blaming OP, not her boy. You can selectively quote OP to your heart's content (see my previous posts for quotes showing opposite), but the one thing that is the most obvious here is that OP is on MN because she is upset with the teacher throwing DS's masterpiece and failure to build DS's confidence. People are flabbergasted that she is worked up about the teacher when her DS' behavior is truly problematic -- he didn't hit or bite or lie, he pulled down a girl's pants in public.

Fantastic. If only all parents and teachers treated incidents like this with such seriousness. Maybe we wouldn't have a society where boys grow up thinking they can do what they like to women's bodies. They don't turn 16 and become sexual predators overnight - it starts from childhood.

Shocking how many people are minimising this by saying he's 5 and didn't know it was wrong. A parent of an NT child has failed in a huge way if their 5 year old doesn't know this is wrong.

Anyway, these boys DID know it was wrong. That's why they goaded each other to do it: because they knew it would upset the little girl.