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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Is this unreasonable punishment from Teacher of 5 year old?

573 replies

sharond101 · 14/09/2017 21:52

DS is 5. He has never been in trouble before, not really but there was incident at school yesterday and a boy told him to pull down a little girl's pants which he did and she told the Teacher. He had his picture put on a dark cloud on the wall and given Time Out which meant yesterday and today he spent playtime in the class without adult supervision drawing pictures whilst the other children played outdoors. What has really annoyed me though is that when the Teacher returned after breaktime she took his picture off him and put it in the bin. He is very upset. Says he doesn't want to go to school and that she (teacher) shouts all the time.

OP posts:

starlightinheaven · 15/09/2017 10:15

And, yes, I know what I just said happened at 10 wasn't real sexual abuse but what if I had been groomed by an adult at that time??? It could have really damaged me. Fortunately I was not being groomed. There was a bit of mild fondling between my legs from my DG and some sexual name calling from him, but nothing serious, thank God.

Iwanttobe8stoneagain · 15/09/2017 10:21

Willow, a great post. However, unfortunately reason is apparently not welcome on this thread. Expect a response staring "As a mother of a DD..." very soon!

LouBlue1507 · 15/09/2017 10:28

I don't believe he has drawn a picture and the teacher has just taken it off him and put it in the bin. He probably left it on the table or something and the teacher has binned it.

starlightinheaven · 15/09/2017 10:30

Maisypops Just curious, why would it be under safeguarding? a child pulling down another child's pants is not abuse from an adult. I would call it bulllying at worst, nothing more.

Lottey90 · 15/09/2017 10:33

I would be disgusted with my son if he had done this.

No matter his age, he knows not to over step boundaries and invade someone's personal space by pulling someone's underwear down. That poor child,she must have been so upset and embarresed.

Hopefully the punishment has upset him and knocked his 'confidence' a bit so he knows never to do that again. Total bully behaviour.
Also I think in your head the teacher ripped the drawring off him and threw it in the bin.
She probably put it in the bin to tidy before the other children came in.

starlightinheaven · 15/09/2017 10:37

Sirzy Sorry to hear what happened to your DS. I think his school handled it well though, from what you have said. I like when schools handle things in a sensible way.

Maisypops I do think safeguarding is a bit hysterical and over the top. The little girl will overcome her trauma quicker if little fuss is made of it and she does not learn to see herself as a victim. If i had taken that attitude when it happened to me I might have grown a thicker skin and not have years of anxiety around men and boys. The fuss that was made in my case caused the teacher to say I was lying which I found more upsetting than the original incident. Not that I am blaming my mum. But I hope and am sure this little girl is more of a fighter than I am!

Sirzy · 15/09/2017 10:38

A child behaving like that could be a sign of "learnt behaviour" though so possibly a red flag for the child being abused/witness to abuse. It most likely isn't but the school would keep a record of it incase it became more relevant at a later stage.

Mittens1969 · 15/09/2017 10:41

@starlightinheaven, I'm so sorry you went through what you did, both at school and as a teenager. It's awful. But actually, freezing up is the normal fight or flight response in those circumstances, believe me. (I've been there.) And your dad's response was absolutely awful, of course it would have been right to report it.

The teacher's response was totally out of order, talk about victim blaming!

it's reassuring to know that these incidents are dealt with differently now.

MissEliza · 15/09/2017 10:43

If one of my sons had done this I wouldn't think twice about the teacher's actions. I'd be absolutely furious with them and punishing them at home as well. I'm sure the teacher was present in the classroom, as a pp who is a teacher has said, she was probably floating around preparing things.
Instead of feeling sorry for your ds having his picture thrown in the bin and his confidence being knocked, you need to get him to think about the little girl's feelings. I bet the experience wasn't great for her confidence.
TBH in most schools I've worked in, your ds would have been in the head's office for that. The teacher certainly took it seriously but it could have gone further.

Voiceforreason · 15/09/2017 10:45

Imo the things that you need to be concentrating on with your ds op are, his truthfulness, his ability to tell right from wrong, his ability to ignore others who tell him to do something he knows is naughty and understanding that it is unkind and unacceptable to hurt or humiliate another person. It really is a bit beside the point that his picture was binned and you only have his word for it that he was unsupervised. I am sure staff were supervising at a distance. To focus on how he might be affected is deflecting the real problem here.

ZoeWashburne · 15/09/2017 10:52

Your son was being punished. It wasn't play time. It wasn't art time. It was nice of them to give him something to do, but they shouldn't coo over his drawing that was done during a punishment. It pretty much negates the reason of punishment. I also want to know how you know he was unsupervised? Is this his account?

I agree you need to have a talk with DS and say 'I know that made you sad. But you were very naughty, and it wasn't play time. It was time to think about how you made Sarah feel when you touched her. What feelings do you think she felt?' and let him talk.

I would be horrified if I was a parent in your DS classroom at his behaviour. Your son is not a victim here, at all.

Iwanttobe8stoneagain · 15/09/2017 11:24

I'm a bit perplexed at why everyone assumes a 5 year old is lying. It's just as likely the teacher has handled the situation very poorly. The child has been punished. The issue which needs to be addressed is how the issue has been handled. What isn't in doubt is the lack of communication from the teacher. This is the issue which now needs to be addressed.

Allthebestnamesareused · 15/09/2017 12:30

As the mum of 3 boys I would be more horrified at my son's behaviour than the teacher's!

There would be discussions and sanctions at home regarding his inappropriate behaviour.

I note OP has not returned!

MrLovebucket · 15/09/2017 12:44

Maisypops Just curious, why would it be under safeguarding? a child pulling down another child's pants is not abuse from an adult. I would call it bulllying at worst, nothing more.

I think it would probably be considered for safeguarding as it involved removing another child's underwear. It's not, as an earlier poster tried to claim, the same as pulling someone's coat off. Teachers have to be very aware of anything that might indicate sexualised behaviour in a child as that's a red flag for abuse.

How likely is it that this 5 year old managed to pull the girl's knickers down without actually touching her? Perhaps she has told the teacher "Boy X touched my bottom/foof when he pulled my knickers down" Now that would be a safeguarding even though the little boy didn't mean to touch her.

So OP what did the school say when you called them? Because of course you would have called them to discuss this incident right? So what is the actual truth of the matter?

NewDaddie · 15/09/2017 12:46

I'm the father of a dd. And a very very PFB at that. I still wouldn't be anywhere as outraged as some of the pp.

Children are innocent even when they do wrong. They aren't yet accountable for their actions. It's our responsibility as grown ups to guide them, not to blame them and judge them.

Some of you will do well to remember that.

BenLui · 15/09/2017 12:50

Iwanttobe you think it's just as likely that the teacher mishandled the situation as 5 year old trying to fib his way out of trouble?

Just as likely??? Goodness

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 15/09/2017 13:01

Children are innocent even when they do wrong.

No they aren't.

They aren't yet accountable for their actions

Of course they can be!

plantsitter · 15/09/2017 13:03

I agree with NewDaddie. The age of criminal responsibility is 10 because it's well-recognised that children can't cognitively be accountable.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 15/09/2017 13:08

She of criminal responsibility is different.

It doesn't mean they are innocent or can't be held accountable.

hippyhippyshake · 15/09/2017 13:09

Some of you will do well to remember that

Mittens1969 · 15/09/2017 13:15

I do think some of the PPs have been OTT myself, and I'm speaking as a sexual abuse survivor. And as a mum of 2 primary school DDs. To listen to some of the posts you would think a 5 year old was a perpetrator of sexual abuse. He isn't, he's a 5 year old. Yes he was inappropriate and it was right that there were consequences.

But the fact that the teacher didn't say anything to the OP about it could suggest that the incident wasn't quite so upsetting as some of you are suggesting? And very likely the DS is exaggerating the punishment as well. (My DD2 is capable of this.)

But it's also not a red flag that there's abuse going on in the home. It sounds like boys egging each other on in the school playground and bullying a little girl, with possibly the OP's DS that got the blame, with the others keeping quiet.

We really don't know enough. We only have the word of a 5 year old. And the OP minimising the incident has led to posters perhaps assuming the worst?

plantsitter · 15/09/2017 13:17

Actually re-reading the thread I don't think anyone does need to remember that!

Nobody's suggesting the boy's evil, just that he needed to be told off. As part of 'guiding' him to not do that shit.

I do think children can't be accountable and are innocent, but I don't think I mean the same thing as Newdaddie in fact.

-makes note to read things properly before commenting

misshelena · 15/09/2017 13:26

Children are innocent even when they do wrong. They aren't yet accountable for their actions. It's our responsibility as grown ups to guide them, not to blame them and judge them

They are criminally innocent, but not innocent. Let me remind you, a person is a child until they turn 18. You have not been around 5 yr olds much. You have forgotten what normal 5 yos are capable of understanding. This pants-pulling boy does NOT understand what he did was a big deal because his DM doesn't think so. How do I know OP doesn't think so? Because she is more concerned about the teacher's behavior than her DS's. I mean, she actually complaining that the teacher has failed to build DS's confidence!! How about the little girl's confidence?? Please refer to starlightinheaven' s post for a real life look at what happens to little girl's confidence when they are assaulted in this way. I sincerely hope that you don't sweep things under the rug if something like this ever happens to your dd.

Dontletthebastardsgrindyoudown · 15/09/2017 13:27

You must have been so upset to hear your little boy done this to the poor little girl. Thankfully you've found out, and you know that the school dealt with it and now you can deal with and handle the situation at home and talk to him about it.

And asking for some advice about how to make sure it won't happen again. Oh wait, you're not! You're concerned about your poor boys feelings toward his picture he painted in detention!

Talk to the school and tell them you'd like to be told about situations like this, so you can parent and make sure it never happens again!

MrLovebucket · 15/09/2017 13:27

As Piglet says, 10 is the age set for legal proceedings. If James Bulger's killers (both 10) had attacked him 7 months earlier they would have been too young to be prosecuted. Do you think that 7 months made any real difference in their cognitive ability or level of responsibility?

Amardeep Sadu is an 8 year old who killed 3 babies. Don't tell me he didn't have the cognitive ability to realise strangling a baby wasn't wrong.

I appreciate these are extreme cases but it doesn't make sense to claim all children are innocent and don't realise they are doing wrong until they hit the magic age of 10.

This little boy clearly didn't realise that what he was doing was wrong. Hopefully he does now and hopefully OP has also taught him that it's not okay for anyone to do this to him either.

The only really worrying thing about this thread is the fact the OP hasn't even tried to speak to the school about it.

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