DH, DD and bodily autonomy

[TenForward82]

DD is 18 months. DH is an amazing dad but one thing that makes me wince is that he will ask her for a kiss or hug and if she says no, do it anyway. If I ask and she says no, I just say "ok" and leave it there.

I'm concerned at the message he's sending her by ignoring her free will on this. I know she's only little but it still makes me uncomfortable. When she says no he'll sometimes cajole her with "Go on, go onnnnn" and tonight he grabbed her for a hug after she said no and said "I got one anyway". It just makes me squirm.

She's historically not very comfortable with him so I understand he craves that contact, but I think it'll make her feel worse about their relationship, not better.

How can I bring this up without making him feel crushed? He's very "woke" on women's issues but like most men just does some things without thinking about it.

I think this does stretch into other areas as well. DD now at six doesn't like getting her fingernails cut, her shots for holidays, her splinters removed. All are done when she is ready and has agreed. What this means is that she is secure. I see her little friend whose mother does hold him down for things hysterical about things like this. If DD gets upset, I say, "do I ever force you or lie about this stuff?" And she says, "no" and calms down.

It took a lot of very irritating creative crap to get here, and I only have one so you can do it, but it works. DD feels that she makes choices about her body and it makes her feel secure and in control of it.

@TenForward82 How much time does he spend with her without you? When my kids were small, I did most of the caretaking, so it ended up with my DH deferring to me and my kids expecting me to do everything. What helped us was DH taking the kids out without me (which was nice and gave me a break) and me occasionally leaving and doing things without them (like book club or dinner with a friend). It was really quite good for the daddy/daughter relationship. One of my DD's first complete sentences was "Daddy is the fun parent," partly because he chose to bond with them by taking them for ice cream a lot.

My DH was a bit like yours, and I went to bat with him over it, emphasizing that my problem with it was that I felt it made the children less safe from others. I also didn't allow extended family to force hugs or kisses. I told them it was gross, and they should all hug and kiss each other rather than demanding of a toddler. I was "that" mother, and yes, some extended family thought I was silly.

Every one got over it. My kids are young adults now. It's impossible to say how any one parenting decision impacted our kids, but I do really like the way they turned out, and I get compliments from my extended family about how lovely they are.

Camellia, yes I do see your point. But it doesn't happen overnight. I can't imagine doing anything different to MrsTerry above at 6 years old. Once a child is old enough to have those sorts of conversations, of course you can be creative, reassuring and there is absolutely no reason to over ride their feelings.

I am not suggesting that it is in any way 'right' to do earlier for affection, only that making decisions over body autonomy is a gradual process in other areas of a child's life and having none to begin with and slowly transitioning into a state whereby you can refuse to have hair, nails teeth done does not prevent a 6 year old for example, feeling able to say no. Therefore I am suggesting that while it is not 'right' for the child's dad to do it, it may not have the long-term consequences suggested by some posters.

Affection is completely different to personal care/safety/medical treatment, and it should never, never be forced. It's all about the person seeking it if theres no consent and it really does set an unpleasant relationship template.

Trying to set some age limit when it becomes less okay is particularly horrid. Small children need more protection not less, given they're less able to assert themselves.

MrsTerryPratchett agree about splinters etc. Dd found that type of thing very distressing. I could not have forced her to do those things like remain still for splinter removal without her co operation!

18 month olds don't know what they're saying 'no' to. YABU.
Only if the parent confuses them by being inconsistent when teaching them what 'no' means.
If you respond to their 'no', then they will learn!

'18 month olds don't know what they're saying 'no' to. YABU.'

Of course they do.

MrsT I respect your philosophy on this but I do wonder, what would you do if your 6yo refused point blank to get an injection, say? DD2 (5) had to get a stitch for a cut a couple of months ago and she doesn't like needles. We tried everything from the doctor doing the injection on me first to explaining why it was a so important to bribing her with a very expensive bit of Sylvanian Families kit she'd had her eye on. In the end it took 3 doses of sedative and me and 2 doctors holding her (down) to get it done. The thing is, afterwards she was just relieved it was over - she'd been so scared and it turned out to be nowhere near as painful as she imagined.

I feel strongly that overriding her wishes here and making her get treatment is the right thing to do - she needed that stitch, and the next step was deeper sedation, oxygen and an overnight stay, which would have been far tougher on her - and I think if medical interventions weaken a child's sense of bodily autonomy, that's probably an acceptable tradeoff. (Losing it to gratify a family member's need for signs of affection is definitely not OK IMO).

I also - maybe this is just because of my own experience, because I had twins and was always trying to balance 2 sets of wants and needs - I find it hard to imagine that you could look after a baby/toddler while never overriding their wishes. I mean, you've never needed to lift them away from wandering off the pavement/petting next door's devil dog etc? I get that with one kid you can anticipate a bit more but there must have been moments?

Someone upthread asked if the OP would feel the same if her child was a boy.

And that got me thinking about whether adults who force hugs and kisses on children are less likely to do it to boys and IME they are. I think it is seen as more acceptable for a boy child to refuse affection and he is more likely to be respected. And that is not right or fair.

Mrs T
*I think this does stretch into other areas as well. DD now at six doesn't like getting her fingernails cut, her shots for holidays, her splinters removed. All are done when she is ready and has agreed. What this means is that she is secure. I see her little friend whose mother does hold him down for things hysterical about things like this. If DD gets upset, I say, "do I ever force you or lie about this stuff?" And she says, "no" and calms down.

It took a lot of very irritating creative crap to get here, and I only have one so you can do it, but it works. DD feels that she makes choices about her body and it makes her feel secure and in control of it.*

I totally agree with this.

My kids obviously don't like injections or having splinters removed, but they don't have to be forced into these things because they trust me.
Because I have never forced them into having teeth brushed or shoes put on, it makes the necessary unpleasant things easier.

I get it. DH used to do this, along with insisting DS hug/kiss family members. I sat down with him and told him it made me uncomfortable when he did that and outlined the reasons why. He had never given it any real thought, but when I asked him to think about it, he agreed.
Instead he started encouraging high fives and fist bumps if DS said no to hugs/kisses.
We do hug and kiss our DC, but if they say no, we respect it. If they show they are uncomfortable we respect it.

Just a word of warning.
DD wasn't a huggy baby/child so we stopped doing it so much. DS on the other hand was always huggy and would always come up to us or respond positively when asked for a cuddle. Eventually at age 8 or so it transpired she was jealous of her brother although she couldn't vocalise what the issue was, it just came out as more arguments etc. Once I connected the two, lovebombing worked and even though to begin with she'd shrug us off I demanded cuddles.

So kids do need affection. It's easy to get into habits and roles that then affects the dynamics of a family.

So yes, I would say the ops dd does need her bodily autonomy respected but perhaps DH can build their relationship by doing things/spending more time in general with her. He shouldn't back off completely.

OK tell him this.

Basically the way you both parent will influence the way she sees all adults, at least for a time.

He is teaching her that she can't say 'no' to physical contact with a male. Is that a good thing to teach her?

'Perhaps DH can build their relationship by doing things/spending more time in general with her. He shouldn't back off completely.'

Well yes but I don't think one person has suggested he 'back off completely', it's the forced physical affection that's at issue.

'We tried everything from the doctor doing the injection on me first to explaining why it was a so important to bribing her with a very expensive bit of Sylvanian Families kit she'd had her eye on. In the end it took 3 doses of sedative and me and 2 doctors holding her (down) to get it done.'

This scenario is so different, it's medical treatment that she needed. It would have been more respectful to simply explain it had to be done, why, how it would go and then just do it. I can see why bribery might be tempting to some but imo it's wrong and disrespectful, particularly where bodily autonomy (of any sort) is concerned.

@toomuchtooold I often thank my lucky stars that so far she hasn't needed any treatment that she can't be talked into that is necessary. The only time we came close was when we were getting shots for vacation and she rightly said that she wouldn't have chosen a holiday that involved shots!

The only thing that worked that time was unlimited chocolate and (most importantly) that her father needed three shots and she only needed one. She relished seeing him have three and that made her agree! If she needed something medical and it wasn't a choice, I would explain, talk to her and then, yes, force her.

I get so annoyed with the selective reading of threads that happens on MN. (I am also totally guilty of this.)

toomuchtooold says
"We tried everything from the doctor doing the injection on me first to explaining why it was a so important to bribing her with a very expensive bit of Sylvanian Families kit she'd had her eye on. In the end it took 3 doses of sedative and me and 2 doctors holding her (down) to get it done.'"

mctat replies:
"It would have been more respectful to simply explain it had to be done, why, how it would go and then just do it. I can see why bribery might be tempting to some but imo it's wrong and disrespectful, particularly where bodily autonomy (of any sort) is concerned.

I think tooold has clearly stated that she did try to explain it, but perhaps you've never been in the situation but you can't "just do it" if a child won't actually sit still. I@ve had to chase a child out of the doctor's surgery bc he was so frightened. You can't actually give injections while running through the door so if your child doesn't agree after you've sat down and reasonably chatted, then what?

Yes, pop, you clearly are guilty of it. I did not suggest toomuch didn't try to explain the procedure. I was merely summarising my take on the respectful way to approach such a situation, and that in my view it shouldn't involve bribery, particularly because it is an issue of bodily autonomy. Neither did I say the doing it part of a medical procedure is easy where consent isn't given. But it differs from forced physical affection in that it's generally necessary for the child's welfare.

I'm totally onside with the forced affection being not on (read thread below) but I thought it was a bit unhelpful to suggest X for injections, and say that anything else is wrong and disrespectful, when she clearly stated that she tried X and it didn't work so had to try Y and Z as well.

Not sure why discussions and bribery are being discussed when we were talking about babies!! I'm sure most people's 6-year-olds trust them and are not forced to do things without discussion.

Since when do discussions and bribery work with babies less than 18 months who are having a full-on tantrum over taking medicine, getting strapped in a car seat or having a nappy change?

It is different to physical affection of course though.

I didn't say 'anything else is wrong or disrespectful' pop, just bribery, particularly in the context of bodily autonomy. Not sure why you're taking such issue with this, and changing what I've said after accusing me of 'selective reading'!

Streetface, clearly not discussion, but a toddler can still have something explained clearly and simply to them and have some understanding of it, and will often respond to both this, and slowing down and involving them in the procedure. But as you can see, it was raised in response to a pp discussing bodily autonomy in reference to injections for an older child.