To think you dont put a rapist in a woman's prison?

[bambambini]

Do women really not count here, has all common sense been ababdoned? How is this even possible?

www.cetusnews.com/news/Transgender-rapist-lag-‘put-in-segregation’-over-‘sexual-advances-to-female-prisoners-.BkeCnqnht-.html

If we are to accept that people can change their legal gender, and we accept that criminals have human rights, then we must also accept that a rapist may decide to change gender and therefore must be treated the same as someone who was born the "new" gender.

Oh, I agree.
It is fucking insane to pretend that someone can change their sex and prisons ought to be segregated by sex.
That it is now possible to change the actual sex noted in the birth certificate is insanity.

And that is why I hold you, Morphene and other transwacktivists of your ilk, personally responsible for the madness.

You may (I admit to not reading all of your posts, I can only deal with so much misogyny in a day, considering I am a woman and your hate of women chips away at my self esteem, like drops of water on stone, bit after bit after bit) be opposed to transgender rapists in women's prisons, but as long as you support the notion that a male can ever become anything other than male, you support putting male rapists in women's prisons.

Because what I quoted there is true. IF, (but only if!) we pretend that it is possible for a bepenised person to be, or become, female, then treating bepenised rapists with a shiny gender identity just like the very rare cases of female sex offenders, is something we have to do. There is nothing in existing laws to enable us to decide that rapists cannot be imprisoned with the kind of people they raped. (And there never will be, because where would you imprison a rapist who has raped both women and men?) We cannot treat rapists differently from other prisoners, and given that we cannot know whether a male who is in prison for any reason whatsoever, is not also a rapist (remember, 90% of rapists are never convicted) that would be idiotic, anyway.

So, let's just stop the madness here and now. Men cannot be women, and you know it. Deep down, you know that someone born with a penis and testicles is male, and will always be male.
You might not like that truth, but you KNOW it.

So let's stop pretending. Let's segregate prisons according to actual sex. Not gender identity.
If male prisoners want to wear skirts and high heels in prison, I am the last person on earth who'd want to forbid it. But that does not make them women. Nothing can ever make them women. And therefore, they do not belong in women's prison.

Being a rapist is irrelevant to gender identity. The point is that a trans woman, penis or no penis, is considered female (though not biologically female, of course).

Being a rapist is irrelevant to gender identity. The point is that a trans woman, penis or no penis, is considered female (though not biologically female, of course).

Exactly. The law does not differentiate between males who have gender identity feelz and aren't rapists, and males who have gender identity feelz and are rapists. The law gives both of those access to women EVERYWHERE.
The law, in short, does not protect women from rapists, in order to protect male feelings about gender identity.

And that is wrong. (And I shouldn't even have to write that).

I always end up feeling like I am the most transphobic person of all, and it isn't a competition I am keen to win, but I actually don't think it makes more than a small difference whether the person involved still has a penis or not. Tiffany Winfield sounds like a person who would be more than capable of cutting off their own penis if it would get them access to something they wanted. I still think they would be of the male sex.

Sorry. Tiffany Scott. Am getting a bit confused between the numerous different cases.

I am trying to remind myself that I keep resolving never to believe a word of the Daily Mail. I hope it's all exaggerated.

You may consider them female balsamic. The fact that they're a double rapist suggests they're male. Growing your hair and changing your name to Jessica doesn't make you a woman.

I always end up feeling like I am the most transphobic person of all, and it isn't a competition I am keen to win, but I actually don't think it makes more than a small difference whether the person involved still has a penis or not.

I stand with you.

Of course, the lack of a penis means that a man cannot impregnate women anymore, and it also means that he has to use an object to rape, which then means the "she wanted it! Just normal sex!" defense won't work that well anymore.

But pretending that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head that may drive said man to chop off his penis, is what got us into this mess in the first place. That was what lead to people saying "well, but if "she" doesn't want to chop off "her" ladypeen, it would be barbaric to force "her" to, right?", and then treating the males-with-genderfeelz who wanted to keep their penis just the same as those who don't. And ultimately to fully intact, bepenised males in women's prisons.

We need to draw a line. Anyone born with a penis is male, and will always be so, and belongs in a male prison. Simple as that.

Pretending that men can become women by getting castrated just leads to the translobby wailing about "forced sterilization", and the end of that story will always be that ALL males, castrated or not, will have free access to vulnerable women everywhere and all the time, because no civilised nation wants to be accused of forcing anyone to be sterilized.

Incredible how the rights of a tiny minority of men will take precedence over all women!
Fucked up society.

Women/Born women/biological females/ Cis women really are at the bottom of the pile

why? are you/they in prison?

Fucking hell. You are surely not suggesting that women in prison should have to put up with the threat of rape because, you know, they've committed crimes? No rights whatsoever?

I actually just cannot get past that. Never mind the rest of it. Seriously? Women suggesting the threat of rape, actual rape, isn't an issue if you've done something criminal? Fucking hell. I mean, what the actual fuck?

jane do calm down - that wasn't the context of the post at all.

I was responding to someone wailing that this was terrible news for her daughters.

The point was not that prisoners shouldn't be protected - they absolutely should. The point was that this is a problem limited to prisons and not in fact the beginning of the end of civilisation as many people seem to believe.

A rapist should not be imprisoned with people they may and could offend against.

When you take a single issue, even one like this that is indeed extremely problematic and requires some serious rethinking of policy, and then extend that assuming peril to all women in all other areas of life - THAT is when you stray from reasonable debate into rampant transphobia.

So you know...don't do that.

Yes, putting a raper of women in a women's prison is obviously wrong, the OP is NBU. However, feeling massively scared for yourself or your daughters when none of you are actually in prison is launching into full on transphobia.

Morphene - but they are, and for reasons that have an impact outside prisons as well. Most obviously in other sex segregated institutions such as hospitals and schools.

vestal do you genuinely think I'm a transactivist? I have argued on other threads that the rejection of any scientific investigation into the causes of transgenderism truly terrible. I've stated I believe gender dysphoria is a psychological problem that should be addressed via psychological treatments not physical surgery. I've said I don't believe in any circumstances in the idea of male and female brains.

All I've said on this thread is not to assume that an issue in one area is magically an issue everywhere....oh and that transgender rapist shouldn't be in prison with women.

Are you quite sure you haven't been attributing other people's comments to me? I mean if I'm a transavtivist, I'm a pretty shit one.

mistaken policy in prisons, doesn't have any impact on hospitals.

Hospitals will need to work out their own policies. As it stands most are not gender segregated and there are endless complaints on MN about how many men there are on even antenatal and postnatal wards...so again...so how are you imagining a policy on transgender people in hospitals is going to impact anyone?

Oh and schools...it boggles my mind that sex segregation is a thing in schools...but then I wouldn't allow religious segregation either were I in charge.

Hospital wards are nearly all segregated by sex, that's the NHSs stated aim as well. Not all post natal wards allow 24 hour visitation either, and I don't think that happens on antenatal wards routinely either.

This was always going to be the natural outcome of the Transgender agenda. Id imagine there will be plenty more to come which could be worse

I mean a Transperson almost became the head of the national students women's office.

What would someone with a dick know about women's issues such as periods, pregnancy etc?

It's ludicrous.

Morphene, it's not transphobia to stand up for those vulnerable. I don't have to be in prison to speak up for those who are and their rights are not being protected.

As far as other public areas go, by extension the same issue remains. It shows some individuals are happy to 'self-identify' as the other gender in order to commit crimes. For that reason alone, this debate and uproar is warranted without labelling people as transphobic.

Sex-segregation exists in many walks of life and is invaluable for some. Create new spaces for those who want to change gender but don't force women to give up their safe spaces.

Why wouldn't you allow segregation in schools and for religious purposes Morphene?

As though teenage years aren't difficult enough for children undergoing puberty etc, you'd allow more opportunity for harassment by mixing boys and girls.

It was mortifying enough changing for PE when your body is changing, changing pads in toilets etc without worrying about the other gender being around to watch or listen. Why give boys and men more opportunities to harass us?

And while you mentioned it, I practice religious segregation at my local place of worship, and banning that wouldn't mean the loss of freedom for men but only for the women in my case.

I have never seen segregation as something I have wanted but unfortunately something I require. Not a choice but a solution to possible male violence, even accidental in sport.
We either need segregation in which case it should be on sex or we do not. Many transgender women suffer the same violence from men, their concerns are viable but if women show express the same fears they are labelled hysterical.

However, feeling massively scared for yourself or your daughters when none of you are actually in prison is launching into full on transphobia.
Why are you describing women speaking out about a concerning situation as "women being massively scared"? Are women only allowed to have an opinion on things directly affecting them? As in that case we can't be involved in politics, feminism, charity work at all.
Can you not see how thinking like that upholds the status quo? (In the broadest sense rather than just regarding transgenderism)

This has really opened up my dh's eyes. He's done nothing but rant all morning about how much people are taking the piss with trans rights

I love him

Someone upthread stated that a trans woman was a trans woman with or without a penis??

Er no if you have s penis you can dress as a woman and pretend to be a woman but you are a man and if you use that penis to hurt or injure a woman you go to a mans jail bebause you are a dirt you rapist fucker man and women deserve to be protected from your penis.

"Someone upthread stated that a trans woman was a trans woman with or without a penis??

Er no if you have s penis you can dress as a woman and pretend to be a woman but you are a man and if you use that penis to hurt or injure a woman you go to a mans jail bebause you are a dirt you rapist fucker man and women deserve to be protected from your penis."

You may feel like that but trans rights in the respect of access to everything female is ploughing on whether we agree with it or not. Sports is an example - will be interesting to watch women's sports over the next few years.