To be annoyed at this feminist

[PlayOnWurtz]

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit

You can still be a feminist and prefer shaving. No point pretending that you werent conditioned into it though.

And regards the friend who doesn't wash and doesn't smell but runs a small holding??? Well the animals probably don't object but guessing she would not be popular in an office job.

I was talking about Ruth Goodman. She is a historian. She lived life as they would in Tudor times for immersive research purposes. I don't know her personally! I believe her regarding not smelling though. As I said my grandparents did not use deodorant. They smelt mainly of soap. My grandmother sometimes wore perfume, so sometimes you could smell that.

Bran

Yes we are all conditioned to our environment that's obvious but we still choose to shave or not and those choosing to are no more or less influenced or conditioned than those who don't.

Just choice and more generally spare time.

Yes rugby players who havnt just come off the pitch.

A friend of mine definitely loved rugby players on the pitch! And straight off the pitch! And the smell of lineament!

deodorants might be fairly recent, but masking bad smells is not

mentalfloss.com/article/18081/body-odor-through-ages-brief-history-deodorant

I too, have mentioned menstruation. You are very lucky if you are able to wear mini tampax and have a light flow. Unfortunately, some of us have horrendous bleed, post babies and during periods, and it's pretty grim down there. It's much cleaner with a trimmed area (I won't even go into details of a c-section, you can imagine)

After a baby, you'd better use pads with wings if you are hairy down there too.

I've always had heavy flow. Without shaving much. Managed without wings too. Don't like wings, they just stick to everything! After a baby the last thing I wanted to do was shave.

good for you, I never said you had to do anything, just replying that not everything is a political statement. I have a trimmed vajayjay because it makes my life easier and I prefer it that way.

Sorry to keep on Bertrand,
You wrote
And what I think she was trying to get across is that usually, people who focus on one word rather than the subject at large are non feminists trying to derail. So it was sides as in feminists and non feminists, rather than different categories of feminist. As I read it anyway.

Who decides I am a non feminist???? I believe myself to be a feminist. What right does someone on the feminist chat board to decide if I can or cannot participate because my views are not those of the exclusive feminist clique on the feminist chat board.
I still maintain that feminism is about inclusivity and equal opportunities for all women. Not just those posters who police the proffered opinions by ordinary women.

Pensionista I don't think anyone is arguing that beards full of food are nice - that's Mr Twit you're describing, not normal blokes with face fur!

coddi that article looks like it was produced by the deodorant industry. Yes people used lemon etc and perfume. But perfume was very expensive and lemon not as powerful as modern deodorant. In Tudor times bathing was rare and Ruth Goodman, after trying living as a Tudor person would, said she did not smell. What she noticed was how chemically modern people smell after going through this process.

Anyway, don't knock it, until you've tried it. I had to after my OP. I'm not kidding, the BO smell was not that pervasive. My DS certainly would have said something, if it was. I also have a sensitive sense of smell, I know when I've smelt before and I know when clothes smell.

I think it is the warnings, in ominous tones, that if you don't shave you will smell and need to use certain types of sanitary product. By people who appear to always shave.

It is just not true. If you go for a reasonable amount of time not shaving, you might find this out.

I would be very interested to try if I had a few months off. It might very well be a vicious circle at the moment: stink, so shower plus deodorant and repeat. I wonder how long it could take to brake the cycle.

I am aware that my refusal to wear shorts without shaving my legs is societal influence - my OH couldn't give two hoots - but I dislike the feel of unwashed head hair and my scalp gets sore. I also trim down below purely to stop the tangled mess of grossness that periods and discharge would otherwise create.

That Mental Floss article is full of complete twaddle. People didn't stop cleaning themselves in the Middle Ages ffs. And the bit about prehistory is totally made up.

Choice feminism is a non-serious term for people who say "feminism is about a woman's right to choose"

How exhausting is this thread, social conditioning does not mean brainwashed or stupid.

I SHAVE MY HAIR SOMETIMES, I'm not brainwashed or stupid but I'm also not shaving my legs pretending that I'm making this choice free of any pressures from society. Why are people getting so defensive and using slurs like feminazi? If you have some medical reason, good for you. It doesn't change the fact that it's expected of women to shave, and women are considered dirty if we don't when men aren't and that. is. bullshit.

It seems like those insisting that they simply haven't heard the pressures on women to change and make that choice entirely for themselves are ignoring the fact most people who are saying it is a pressure ALSO SHAVE

I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash

& thats a perfectly valid reason. Its your reason - doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Yes we know there is societal pressure about these things but within that its still the case that there are women who do what they please. We are not all sitting there saying society dictates this, so I must do this

I hate underarm hair so I get rid. Growing up in a hot country reinforced that, its too sticky/sweaty otherwise. Pubic hair gets a trim, and thats it. In reality I've never ever met a man who commented on body hair, but I see mention of it online

We can do as we please re our body hair - being dictated to in either direction is silly, we don't have to fit in a box to fit particular strands of feminism just as we don't have to go along with sexism etc. This 'if you don't do this/if you do this you're not a feminist' attitude isn't useful. Feminism is important, let every woman celebrate it in her chosen way.

If you've ever been on n a position where you do not get to wash much(hands and face excluded) then you would notice that it is clothes that smell not you.
I am of an age where shaving only became the norm when I was in my teens(under arms and bottom of legs)and really only in summer.
Not sure how hair is and issue during even the heaviest period.
I now only shave my underarms occasionally,my bush is now naturally thinner and I have almost hairless legs.
Nothing is ever going to stop me removing the new and increasing chin hairs though.Is that social conditioning or vanity?

"Who decides I am a non feminist???? I believe myself to be a feminist. What right does someone on the feminist chat board to decide if I can or cannot participate because my views are not those of the exclusive feminist clique on the feminist chat board."

But nobody said you aren't a feminist. Or that you could or could not participate. The poster concerned said that in that particular post you said something that non feminists often do.

Why are you ignoring the other posters who would have been happy to engage? Why are you focusing on the one poster who said something you don't like? People on the feminist boards say things I don't like all the time. I don't think that means I can't participate.

I'm very surprised than anyone can claim not to be conditioned or influenced by societal expectations. I think I live with most of both feet in the non-shaving camp: I've never, ever, so much as snipped at my pubes, I remove leg hair maybe a couple of times a year when the weather's warm, and trim my pits about once a year if I think it's needed. In any discussion like this, I feel the impulse to justify my choices to the vocal shavers who talk about massive hairy bushes and sweaty underarms. At the same time I feel a little weak-willed that when I have shaved, I've bowed to some kind of external feminine standard, because I'm not doing it to make myself feel better, but to avoid judgement.

I don't have an issue with women shaving, I do have an issue with men and women linking shaving with hygiene. It is not unhygenic to not shave, it is unhygenic to not wash. Hair is there for a bioligical reason and until men are hounded by the norms of society to be completly hair free it is a feminist issue.

In my (limited) experience, feminists defend their chosen orthodoxy far more actively and stridently than the "patriarchy".

In my (limited) experience, feminists defend their chosen orthodoxy far more actively and stridently than the "patriarchy"."

I'm not even sure what that means, sorry!

I don't feel clean if I don't shave my legs or armpits. The products are there to get rid of them so I will very happily use them. And it makes ME feel better about MYSELF. I just couldn't wear a dress with hairy legs. That's my choice and if any feminists have a problem with that then they are hypocrites.

It's perfectly possible for both societal pressure and personal choice to be present.

I shave my legs because I have been conditioned to not like the look of them hairy.
However, I trim my pubic hair because I find I get uncomfortably warm and sweaty if I don't. Human beings weren't 'designed' with layers of clothing over their bits. I find thick hair plus knickers and trousers are excess to my warmth requirements. Nobody but dh sees my pubic hair, and he doesn't give a monkey's whether it's trimmed. I think it's terrible that some women have it all painfully waxed off because they are made to feel they have to look like pornstars, but my reasons for trimming are nothing whatsoever to do with societal pressure. That doesn't mean I'm claiming to be immune to societal pressure though - nobody is really.

"That's my choice and if any feminists have a problem with that then they are hypocrites."

Why are you so cross about it?