Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be annoyed at this feminist

530 replies

PlayOnWurtz · 05/09/2017 08:01

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way Hmm erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit Hmm

OP posts:
ponderingprobably · 05/09/2017 21:39

Why is it good for capitalism to have women tied to the house, cleaning. When we could be making money and earning or being exploited in minimum paid jobs?

Manclife · 05/09/2017 21:40

I'm not saying women's magazines are right to do It, quite the opposite. But as they're run by women how can it be a patriarchy issue?

WishfulThanking · 05/09/2017 21:40

Who cares about the 'patriarchy', whoever they are? Get that word out of your head, because it is confusing you.

ILoveDolly · 05/09/2017 21:40

Shaving because you like it, or choosing not to shave because you like it, sounds like freedom. But it's not is it, because hairy women are shamed and regularly laughed at. Societal norms indicate hairlessness is desirable and sexier. Young women are pressured to shave through these norms. Societal pressure which is driven by a male aesthetic which fetishises young weak vulnerable hairless semi clad thin women. That's why its not really that 'feministy' to dehair (for non medical reasons). It's like saying Yes I love looking like a prepubescent sex puppet for you, Men. Sorry but that's how I see it.

Walkingtowork · 05/09/2017 21:41

I never put it past some people (again, naming no names) to just be on the wind up on threads like this.

ponderingprobably · 05/09/2017 21:42

But as they're run by women how can it be a patriarchy issue?

Because in a patriarchal society, reinforcing patriarchal views, sells.

Manclife · 05/09/2017 21:42

Capitalism isn't about the bigger picture it's about selling a product and they'll manipulate the system (even society) to do it.

ponderingprobably · 05/09/2017 21:44

If the holders of wealth, in the capitalist society, are men then capitalism supports those men. The capitalist society is also patriarchal.

ponderingprobably · 05/09/2017 21:45

And because of the disadvantages women have in a patriarchy, the wealth holders are disproportionately men.

Walkingtowork · 05/09/2017 21:48

You've got to wonder what some people think the patriarchy actually is, if it's not connected to either societal norms or capitalism...

(on a wind up, I tell you)

Manclife · 05/09/2017 21:49

Again, that's capitalism at work. Do you think it would be much different if there was a 50/50 split? I don't think so.

Back on topic. Hair removal is nothing new and has been happening for thousands of years in many cultures. If society changed to want women to be unshaven would you insist on then shaving?

AskBasil · 05/09/2017 21:51

"I believe it's more about what is socially fashionable than patriarchy"

What is socially fashionable is happening within patriarchy. It's not separate from it. Social fashion happens inside capitalism and patriarchy

Manclife · 05/09/2017 21:51

I'm fully aware of what patriarchy is the same way I know what feminism is. The issue arises in it's interpretation which is what started this post.

WishfulThanking · 05/09/2017 21:52

Hi OP! This is a great thread that you never returned to! Lots of fodder for your article/a good laugh at the stupid women. Well done!!

ponderingprobably · 05/09/2017 21:55

Again, that's capitalism at work. Do you think it would be much different if there was a 50/50 split? I don't think so.

If there were a 50/50 split, the culture would be wholly different. Expectations would not be based on being masked or female.

Back on topic. Hair removal is nothing new and has been happening for thousands of years in many cultures. If society changed to want women to be unshaven would you insist on then shaving?

No, I believe in free choice. People genuinely not to be bothered whether I shave or not. Like they don't care what colour my eyes are or whether I wear a navy or grey coat.

ponderingprobably · 05/09/2017 21:56

Male or female. Typo!

Datun · 05/09/2017 21:59

Manclife

So sexist adverts, aimed at women, advertising cleaning products, for the woman to use - implied by the blurb and woman in the advert, are not a result of patriarchy?

Again no. That's a capitalist issue.

Yes, it's a capitalist issue. Capitalism exploits the societal norms that benefit patriarchy.

Women need to be groomed and held to an impossible and expensive beauty standard, and capitalists exploit that up the wazoo.

Likewise that women are homemakers and caregivers. Cleaning products products aimed at women, not men. Capitalism reinforces gender stereotyping, because it works.

MaryLennoxsScowl · 05/09/2017 21:59

But as they're run by women how can it be a patriarchy issue?

Because of what feminists refer to as 'internalised patriarchy', which refers to those times when women claim that removing all their body hair with sharp implements was entirely their own choice and nothing to do with damaging idealised beauty standards. Wink

Cf, those women in America who think women shouldn't have the vote, want to be told what to do by men, and bring back slavery.

My point is that just because women are involved doesn't mean it can't be a bad thing. Also, the patriarchy is also the status quo, developed way before women were running magazines, and we are at a point where a women's magazine can on the one hand run an anti FGM campaign and simultaneously run those vacuous 'hey, it's okay to... eat a chocolate biscuit after a hard day' articles. So women's mags are promoting some feminism while still being stuck in the dark ages in some respects.

Datun · 05/09/2017 22:02

From what I gathered from a thread a few weeks ago, it seems as though shaving one's pubes is falling out of fashion. At least with some teenagers.

But, naturally, it won't stop there, because they are now dying it.

WishfulThanking · 05/09/2017 22:02

I'm glad I don't have to bring up a female in this new age. But if i ever did I would arm her with knowledge, and she would not just be a puppet.

My ex has my children just as much as I do and I earn far more than him. My mum brought me up to know that I am worthy. This is precisely why I have the life I have today. If others don't want it, then that is their choice. I just know that I am surrounded by women stuck in the 'my ex has cancelled on me on his one day a week/fortnight he has them' cycle. It might seem unrelated, but it really isn't. And I cannot be arsed to keep speaking up for these people that want to keep the status quo.

Keep shaving and waxing, believing you're doing it for yourselves. As I said, I wax too, but I am self-aware enough to know why I do it. If you can't even grasp that, and feel angry at people who question your choices, then I have no more to say to you.

Manclife · 05/09/2017 22:10

I'm agreeing with 99% if the issues in society your all raising we just seem to disagree on the cause. I'll leave it at that as it seems the OP has left the thread.

Walkingtowork · 05/09/2017 22:10

To be fair though, it's not widely talked about. I wouldn't have started to see what's really happening if I hadn't chanced upon some feminist books in the 6th form. I can't feel annoyed at women who don't see this the same way as me. It's not like everyone is presented with this point of view, to accept or reject.

Manclife · 05/09/2017 22:11

PS I'm also agreeing it's not really a 'choice' to shave.

PlinkyTheFairyWitch · 05/09/2017 22:33

Patriarchy isn't some shadowy Illuminati-style group of be-robed old men, stroking their beards and dreaming up new ways of screwing women over.

Patriarchy is a society built by men for men. Take a look at the capitalistic system - yup, a system built by men for men.

You can find plenty of feminists arguing that capitalism is anti-feminist, or at least that the whole oppression thing is deeply interconnected with the whole capitalism thing.

Depending on how far you want to go down this particular rabbit hole, you could start asking questions about precisely whom it benefits to keep women (already at a financial disadvantage) buying and using cosmetics, intimate hygiene products, 'beauty' procedures, clothes, shoes, magazines and so on and who built that enormous beast of an industry around it. Why 'me-time' and variants are aimed at consumption and not, say, creation. Why women are also the biggest contributors to household and parenting tasks.

Both capitalism and patriarchal society benefit from this. Women benefit from it...how? Cos if you were of a cynical bent, you'd be stroking your womanly beard and wondering if, by chance or design, the whole stinking mess is keeping women in general too busy and poor to actually do anything much, but looking hot at the same time.

But it's OK cos it's your choice.

AskBasil · 05/09/2017 22:37

"But as they're run by women how can it be a patriarchy issue"

They're owned by men. The products which advertise in them and keep them in existence, are owned by men. The profits they generate, are collected by men.

There isn't one mainstream magazine or newspaper, that is majority-owned by women. Not one.

But hey, we're all equal now and there's no such thing as patriarchy.

Swipe left for the next trending thread