How to explain "God" to 5 year old?!

[godconfusion]

DS has a very religious grandmother who has somewhat confused him at the moment telling him about God/Jesus.

Conversation this morning began with "I can see God at the window mummy"

Lots of chatter lately about how God is a superhero (certain his GM has told him this in attempts to explain the concept of God ) I had been ignoring and waiting for it to die off and don't want to start an almighty row over it with her.

So I replied saying "well you know lots of people believe different things and I don't believe in God like GM but some people do, others believe in different Gods they might call things like Krishna or Allah"

He responded saying "well I believe like GM because she isn't lying is she?"

I tried to say "no she's not lying because she believes it, but she doesn't know for sure"

He replied "because God is invisible, that's why. Is Allah invisible too?"

I said "people believe in God or Gods and that's fine and some people don't, mummy doesn't anymore but nanny does and I think daddy might but you can choose"

He came back with "well I believe in lizards that change colour"

I said that they're not quite the same because chameleons are things we can see with our eyes so we know they're definitely real and true whereas God isn't something we can actually see and know so we have to just believe or not believe

His response: "yes because Jesus is invisible and he made the whole world mummy and a lizard didn't so we can see them"

So basically I'm confusing my kid further... and need a really clear and appropriate way of explaining the concept of God without saying it's all bollocks (as I don't want to say that either)

it's very black and white to him. Things are correct or they are wrong

But he's 5, surely there are lots of things which are in the don't know situation, and has met lots of things where people have different views - obvious things like when it's safe to cross the road, when is bed time, when is an appropriate time for chocolate?

He also must surely know that there are questions where the answer is "don't know" - there's loads of them, including creation, post death, etc. most religions in Britain are not creationist until the "don't know" part of the scientific story these days. So all religious discussion is framed like that surely?

@sirfredfredgeorge I'm actually a little worried he doesn't. Where he doesn't know he will make something up and not be told otherwise. Obviously there are situations I can control this in and situations I can't...

I think he's a pretty anxious little boy covering it up with overconfidence

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The way evolution works can see quite extraordinary- just like I've done physics at degree levels and understand the science behind planes flying, it still seems amazing. The fact that it seems amazing doesn't mean it's magic, or supernatural. And the same applies to evolution.

Richard Dawkins has written various truly fascinating books on evolution, which are somewhat more accessible than the original scientific papers. The blind watchmaker would be my top recommendation: its purpose is to explain how a process that appears "blind" can end up with functioning complexity. The pilgrim's tale is another really interesting one, but I think presupposes more of an understanding of evolution. River out of Eden is another book that explains how evolution works by him. I find Dawkins a very engaging writer, though sometimes rather forceful in his expressions.

I also own, but haven't yet read, a book called "evolution and belief", by an evolutionary scientist who also believes in god. It's by a man called Robert Asher. If the books by Dawkins were not of interest, perhaps this might be a useful read?

Some strange theories on here, seems like some try too hard to convince believers there isn't a God rather than just be indifferent.

Saash do you know what the odds are for the moon being in the position it is in relation to the earth, you are believing that it is there purely by chance?

Btw i didn't say the earth was perfect, i said it was in perfect alignment to the sun and moon for us to exist. Read my post properly before passing comment.

heart The point is that it doesn't matter how small the odds are: if there are a million other universes where the moon is at a different distance, then in those universes we will be unable to observe the fact that the moon is at the wrong distance, and thus the fact that we can observe the moon necessarily means it is at a distance which allows us to exist. Perhaps in another universe where the moon was closer we might be adapted to dealing with larger tides or we might not exist at all.

The universe contains an estimated 70 billion trillion (7x10^22) stars. Then of those, some will have planets around them and some won't. Some of those planets will have moons, others will be located near asteroid belts and others again near other planets - all of these factors, along with the chemical make up and distance from the star will change the way the planet exists - does it have water, or a sulphurous atmosphere. With 7 billion trillion stars, and 13billion years so far, it sudden seems less unlikely that a star will have a planet located at a suitable distance such that some life can evolve. That we have evolved arises from the conditions on our planet, not the other way around.

Buy him some Greek myth stories. Back in the day lots of people believed in those gods. Now people don't believe in those gods any more but some people believe in different ones

Good idea.

Love how people always mesh santa with God/Allah

I teach dc to always question everything even stuff presented as fact. DD is at religious school but doesn't believe, she came to it through her own thinking she has quite a practical logical scientific mind and is obsessed with how the world works, evolution and also Greek Myths.

Yep, start them now with the "it's bollocks phase"

Also, get him books on Greeks and Romans and Titans and tell him people believed they were gods too. With any luck he'll forget the religious crap and get interested in the Greek myths.

Start them with the 'some people believe'. If grandma is religious then it's not nice to say 'grandma is nuts and talking shite' (paraphrased).

"Btw i didn't say the earth was perfect, i said it was in perfect alignment to the sun and moon for us to exist. Read my post properly before passing comment"

Why are you ignoring the many people pointing out that we have evolved to fit the world we have, rather than the other way round?

Bettrand why am i ignoring it? because obviously i don't accept it, i could say the same thing, "why are you ignoring when i say that the world was created", or am i supposed to accept the opposite of what I believe.

The odds of our position in the universe by chance is 1/1010^123. To get an idea of just how low those odds are, if that number were written out, it would contain vastly more zeros than there are atoms in the known universe! 16 (There are approximately 1078 atoms in the known universe.) And all of those zeroes represent incredibly more universes than the number of zeroes!

Can you give a better explanation?

Nothing insightful to add, but the mention of 'primordial soup' has made me hungry!

So this god has been around billions of years and has had a few goes at making a super species (I'm assuming the dinosaurs were getting boring - hence the meteor). He settles on humans but makes sure there's enough going on So they have lots of ways to meet a grisly end and make each other unhappy.

It sounds like big brother tbh.

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What if you think about it as playing the lottery? The chances of winning on a given set of numbers are low. But people do win because there are a lot of entries. And if you went and talked to someone who had won, you wouldn't say that they must have cheated and had someone pick the numbers out for them, because it was so unlikely that they would win. They have already won, so the fact that the odds of them winning was low is irrelevant.

In the same way, there are a lot of stars, and a lot of time and if we weren't here to observe our own existence, then we necessarily could not observe that we did not exist. There is no need to postulate a god to explain that - it's just statistics.

The odds of winning the lottery are 14 million to one. Not remotely close to a comparison. In fact not worth mentioning.

the odds of the sun, moon and earth being in perfect alignment for us to exist I dont understand why you think an all powerful god needs to have the sun, moon and earth in alignment for life to exist, that sort of indicates he is subordinate to the laws of physics and not in control of them. Otherwise he could have just wished us to exist on any old lump of rock!
For example in genesis he apparently wished into existence a special kind of light that didn't need to come from stars.

The odds of our position in the universe by chance is 1/1010^123
You maths is way off, because I assume you have calculated all the variables as if they are independent. However they are not, they are all interdependent and it turns out it is highly likely earth and our solar system could only ever be aligned the way it is. As we are now finding out around the universe, earth type planets in solar systems are common, if not very common. The laws of physics do not allow for square shaped solar systems, so our alignment is 100% probable.

No one is asking anyone to believe in evolution, just go out and research the evidence. But some people are asking others to just believe in various gods because well you know, just cause.

Santa and god are well connected. He got his high priest the pope to saint him, so they are buddies now in the same pantheon.

Etymology23 Your never going to win an argument with a fundamentalist using logic. Because the more improbable the odds of something happening, the more likely it is that it will happen.

Or as one of Terry Pratchett's characters explained "Million-to-one chances,” she said, “crop up nine times out of ten.” -

Fourteen million to one odds happen every week. 1/1010^123 to one odds must therefore happen every second, if my maths are correct.

fresh well obviously he decided he didn't want us to live on a rock. If you're that powerful why settle for less than our magnificent universe.

As yet, evolutionism has not produced a scientifically credible explanation for the origin of such immense complexities as DNA, the human brain, and many elements of the cosmos.

Science has yet to discover how even one protein molecule could actually have come into existence by natural processes.There is no scientific proof that life did (or ever could) evolve into existence from non-living matter. Further, there is substantial evidence that spontaneous generation is impossible. Only DNA is known to produce DNA. No chemical interaction of molecules has even come close to producing this ultra-complex code which is so essential to all known life.

Hearts- it is considered good practice to use quotation marks when you c&p soneone else's text......

Been googling Bert? , i presumed it was obvious i'd copied and pasted. Doesnt change facts though.

The odds of me existing as me are incredibly small as well, yet I do (taking into consideration the chances of my parents meeting, staying together, that sperm, that egg, etc).

i love how atheists start bending over backwards to say teaching nonsense like santa isnt the same as teaching about God. 'well santa is a harmless tale to little children not a religion'.

being on the outside looking in its strange to me how perfectly rational people who will poopoo any talk of God will go to the most extraordinary lengths to prove to their children that Santa exists. and how society is on in it the media, hollywood, down to teachers who darent tell their kids that its not real for fear of censure by parents. they can easily say some people believe about god but when ti comes to santa the assumption is that everyone should believe in him. the funniest iv heard is 'well people who dont believe in santa dont get presents' which to a kid is like telling them they will go to hell if they dont believe.

the qualities they imbue santa with sound alot like what a gods powers would be: santa is Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. parents use santa as a supernatural monitor, observer, punisher/rewarder for their children to behave just as the gods of old were used for. you think santa is some cute cuddly old man i see santa as just as much a tool to control and motivate as religion used to be.

an atheist from a place of scientific materialism on the other hand, will answer the question about santa the same way they talk about God, 'its all bollocks'. 'i dont teach my kids any sort of nonsense', i respect those atheists. theyre consistent. you can sort them from the capitalist atheists who'll be all gung ho about the stupidity of teaching God and creationism but then start stumbling on climate change or santa. i used to think it was cognitive dissonance but i realised its actually perfectly rational when considering ideology.

santa is a great way to ease kids into the morality of capitalism. whoever mentioned pantheon upthread was right but jesus and santa cant sit together on that theyve got different messages. to make children good little materialists when theyre older, guilt free, your wealth and stuff is because of virtue, not of vice. fear not of hedonism and naked consumerism but 'your worth it', 'because you are good'. santa is just a little god on the pantheon of gods to capitalism. Jesus/God is just an inconvenience here just an inhibition, santa only brings gifts to good children, ergo, kids that don't get presents are not good. subliminally, kids are taught that those without presents are in that situation because they deserve it. lack of presents and poverty is because of wilfulness. vice. disbelief (didnt believe in santa). what's Jesus' message?

Reading this thread with utter fascination. Thanks for posting OP.

I am atheist. DH is atheist but strongly believes in organised religion as an important cultural structure. MIL and PIL are devout Catholics.

Up to this point they have kept the religion to a minimum around DS, but he's just getting to the point of showing interest and I can see we have a complex path to navigate.

In my head I see religious belief as a one or a zero, either you are open to faith at some level, or you aren't. I can understand how attractive it is to believe in a higher power, taking the difficulties of personal responsibility away to a certain extent. I just don't have the capacity to believe. Because if this I find it difficult to believe that DS won't make his own mind up when the time comes.

I don't want DS to think less of his grandparents because of what they believe in, but I also don't want him indoctrinated. It's a tricky one and really good to read people's views.

obviously he decided he didn't want us to live on a rock. If you're that powerful why settle for less than our magnificent universe. And yet here we are on an unstable rock, beside a star than will explode and kill us all at the same time as we collide into our neighboring galaxy compounding our annihilation.

evolutionism has not produced a scientifically credible explanation for the origin of such immense complexities as DNA, the human brain, and many elements of the cosmos.
Evolutionism is not a word. Evolution completely explains and proves the diversity and complexity of DNA, and the human brain. Evolution has nothing to do with the 'cosmos'.

Science has yet to discover how even one protein molecule could actually have come into existence by natural processes Just wrong, how it could have happened has been discovered but without a time machine we will never know which of the possibilities actually occurred. What has never been proved is the creation of a single atom ever by just the wishes of any being.

There is no scientific proof that life did (or ever could) evolve into existence from non-living matter And there is no proof that it couldnt.

there is substantial evidence that spontaneous generation is impossible Please provide this.

Only DNA is known to produce DNA The operative word being 'known'. aka god of the gaps.

No chemical interaction of molecules has even come close to producing this ultra-complex code which is so essential to all known life. aka god of the gaps.

bluedemilune interesting perspective, to late to consider it all. But surly different gods with different messages do sit in the same pantheon! Santa is a Nike/Tyche character promoting victory/good fortune and Jesus is a Hades character controlling the after life?

Since the thread is moving and sparking debate...

I don't think disproving creationism or scriptures removes a belief in a higher power if you have one.

I've left Pentecostal Christianity which is sort of "Christianity on steroids" FYI if your only reference of Christianity is a harvest festival in a CofE church.

They take it incredibly literally, and have all kinds of fun doctrines that you may not find in other "Christian" sects. For example - not cutting hair as it's the glory of God. If you said that to your average Christian they'd look at you like you're bonkers.

But though I left... I still experience what I used to call "God" only now I think it's probably the same as what atheists call "intuition"

I can't altogether remove my belief in something very real iyswim and I don't want to damage my DS development of trust in his own inner guidance however he later chooses to frame that

To me there is something unexplainable, magical and valuable- some force we all interact with that science as yet hasn't explained, but probably will one day