To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

[MerchantofVenice]

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

It's worse when it happens in real life. I'm currently having to deal with a person born male who vaguely identifies as trans or queer or whatever is trendy at the time and despite the fact that he looks like an aggressive thug of man, acts like an aggressive thug of a man and reflects the privilege of an aggressive thug of a man he is allowed to whine that feminism is all about middle-class white women (he's white and middle-class), that women fantasise about rape from black men and are racist, that TERFs literally silence trans people and that anyone objecting to the enslavement of women in prostitution (including prostituted and trafficked women) is whore-phobic. He thinks he can, wait, no he knows he can, comment on women and feminism in negative, harmful and oppressive ways even though he is male through-and-through because he 'identifies' as a woman. And you know what? He gets away with it because women are socialised to look after others who purport to be more vulnerable and we are specifically taught to look after men. A black rights organisation would not be stupid enough to welcome a white supremacist 'identifying' as black. Why do we invite in nasty, sexist, misogynist men who not only advocate against our interests but dupe us into advocacy against our interests and for their misogyny? It's like in the Three Little Pigs with the wolf huffing and puffing to blow down the house from the inside.

I'm not trying to silence anybody.

But thats exactly what your first 2 posts attempted to do with you name calling the OP.

Restless I don't think the issue is with the fact that you don't have an issue with the new legislation but with the fact that you don't see and are unwilling to see how it is a very real threat to women.

Could well be wrong though

Oh dear god, I'm done. As you were.

I cannot wrap my head around the 'assigned at birth' stuff - you are born biologically male or female.
I get that we categorise a penis as male and a vagina as female but this refers to human biology.
Everything else we heap on top of that is social and cultural. Why not try to change what is heaped on top (gender roles) than erase the reality of biological difference (and therefore women's lived experience of female biology)?

This has just come up in a context at work. I am working out whether I am brave enough to put my money where my mouth is. As it stands, i have temporarily shunted it off my desk and feel like i sold out a bit.

I've always tended to have left-wing and left-leaning stuff on eg my twitter/fb feeds. A lot of it is Scotland-based. I've noticed a huge shift in the last couple of years of very young, very angry queer/non-binary identifying people.
There is absolutely no chance of having a reasonable discussion, coming to any sort of compromise or raising valid concerns. I, as a woman rapidly approaching menopause, will get screamed down by what is technically a group of teenage boys.
Since when was feminism for teenage boys and not for actual women??
And that tedious quote "if your feminism isn't intersectional, who is it even for?". Women. It's for women. FFS.

All the people I know who identify as MTF transgenger are in no way a danger to women. They have been through painful personal experiences and I as a woman born in a woman's body do not want anyone speaking for me to discredit them. People who fear women who were born in a body that does not match their identity do not speak for me.

I am with Restless. Others on here are silencing those with a different opinion and aggressively so.

And that for me Spartacus is the grey area I said. There is a real trend amongst the TG to create and apportion blame on other sectors. To want to 'take' privilege back from these sectors. As if Barbara on the willows estate with 2.4 kids and a land rover is the reason you identify with a different gender from your birth.

I'm actually very pro TG rights to a certain degree however I feel these things needs to be managed properly to minimise risk. In day to day life I'm very much a live and let live kind of person. It's when you look at the specialised women's resources that I understand the concerns. I do think women's shelters should be women by birth shelters. I also think there should be gender neutral shelters to support those that need it.

Likewise I think prisoners should be able to be in the prison of their chosen gender but in specialist units or solo confinement. They shouldn't be mixing with the general populous because a, there is a risk to them and b, there is a risk of people taking advantage of gender fluidity.

Likewise in schools a child that is receiving specialist counselling and support should be in the gender changing rooms of their choice. But there should also be separate facilities should they wish to use them. The difference at the younger age is TG that are supported in young age are less likely to have mental health problems as they grow older. I also think it should be at the discretion of the headteacher as to when a student transfers from solo changing facilities to using the gender of their choice facilities. So ultimately they should have a veto that the child and parent can not legally challenge. Because they have to ensure the safety of all the children

I don't feel anyone is trying to silence anyone here. This is however a debate and to join in and throw a "you're all wrong because I don't agree" and not be willing to really quantify it is utter BS.

I cannot wrap my head around the 'assigned at birth' stuff - you are born biologically male or female.

Gender is far more complicated than that. Being born intersex is an issue that I have been aware of in our family from my mother's generation. Born 1928. That child's story of their progression into adulthood is not a happy one. Between 1 in 1500 and 1 in 2000 babies are born with sufficient genital anomaly to be brought to the attention of specialists.

Slightly OT from original thread, but this is a fact of gender that needs wider acknowledgement. Whilst a child of mine was in GOSH, we saw for the first time a form to fill in about our child where the options for sex were wider than the normal M/F as this is a situation that is reality for many of their patients.

I am with Restless. Others on here are silencing those with a different opinion and aggressively so.

Did you miss their first 2 posts? Aggressive name calling has only come from Restless no other poster has been aggressive apart from them.

With beiber, voice and restless.

The MTF I know are not a threat to women. And this is a TAAT.

No it's not common Biber. Intersex people are very unusual and their existence has fuck all to do with people thinking they can identify their way out of sex-based oppression

I view gender as simply a social construct that is now, for some reason, being made more and more complicated.

It's clear that rigid gender expectations are making more and more people feel unhappy and constrained. Can't argue with that.
But why does it need to lead to the denial of biology?

No it is not Cat this thread is about silencing women. If it is reported and deleted as a TAAT it proves that point.

The mtt that you know Cat, not all men who wear dresses though. Surely you wouldn't give away all women and girl's rights to privacy, dignity, same sex facilities, same sex sports, scholarships, same sex wards, rape crisis centres etc just because the mtt that you know are nice.

That would be a bit silly wouldn't it.

The MTF I know are not a threat to women.
Thats good.
The men I know are not a threat to women so does that mean no men are ever?

Infantilising me.

Mocking me.

Belittling me.

All of the above has just been done to me in this thread.

I don't agree with you. I don't have a problem with sharing spaces. I don't give two hoots about sport. Men born men are almost always going to be better at most sports than women.

I don't care. It's not an issue for me and this so is a TAAT.

A man who wants to take on the extreme end of gendered roles for women is wanting the gender choice to be treated as though it is also a sex change?.
That's like saying women who work in engineering should henceforth be called boys. It is a bit mental. Its reinforcing the polarisation to say that doing female things and thinking female things completely emasculates you, which is very old fashioned, and I suspect class-based.

^This^^

That's what I've been trying to articulate. Badly.

Thank you, scaryclown. I love you. A little bit. Not physically. I mean, girl crush. In a non-sexual way. 😳😳😳

The prevailing orthodoxy is that anyone can identify as any gender. Suggest that it's a nonsense for many people is tantamount to heresy. Expressing worry about the proposed changes gets you shut down. Kiri Tunks, VP of the NUT, wrote an article about her concerns about the Gender Identity Bill and there are campaigns for her to lose her job.

Those are the voices that are being silenced, not the ones that have no problem with it

MTF trans people are not "men who wear dresses".

That's lazy characterisation. I know MTF who wear jeans and trousers and don't wear make up.

Men who wear dresses is a derogatory term and misgendering on purpose. Which is rude.

You don't give two hoots about sport Cat but the girls and women who spend their entire lives training do care. They have rights that need to be preserved.

Why? They will never be the fastest or the strongest so why does it matter?

They will be as good as they can be. Isn't that enough?