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Original poster

To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

703 replies

MerchantofVenice · 20/08/2017 09:40

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

OP posts:
TheHumanRace · 21/08/2017 11:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 21/08/2017 11:09

but as an argument there is just no internal consistency and it is so OBVIOUS.

Because none of this is about logic. It's about validation.

It's about a subset of men who want to present as women, and need to rely on everyone else to validate that. Up to and including completely validating themselves as male, by forcing women to comply.

HappyCamperZZZ · 21/08/2017 11:17

It astounds me that overwise intelligent people are going along with this cult like ideology. That a man can become a woman and vice versa is pure delusion....then expecting, and achieving, people to agree and back up the delusion. In the majority of news sections where I have seen members of the public comment the consensus is that it is madness to deny biology. The only place I have seen the opposite is on Pink News. I had to unfollow that page as the pure hate towards anyone who dare question trans idealogy was venomous.

TheHumanRace · 21/08/2017 11:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 21/08/2017 11:48

It's about a subset of men who want to present as women, and need to rely on everyone else to validate that. Up to and including completely validating themselves as male, by forcing women to comply

Partly - it is also about men who have no desire to present as women and think they can still be considered women and demand to be seen as such. Sadly, Danielle M. is not alone.

TinyRick · 21/08/2017 12:02

Considering some MtTs consider themselves 'biological' women and that they always have been since birth and they are not a male in any way and never have been, I'm taking a couple of the protestations upthread where posters insist that they are biological women with grain of salt.

SmileEachDay · 21/08/2017 13:51

The irony of men trying to force women into accepting a worse position for the benefit of the men is just so familiar.

Someone should invent a name for that.

Ereshkigal · 21/08/2017 14:01

People who truly care about transpeople need to make an attempt to understand the gender critical position and engage with it, because it's just getting more and more polarised. You won't bully us into silence, awfully sorry about that.

JAPAB · 21/08/2017 15:54

SmileEachDay Why are you SO intent on insisting there are sexual crimes that aren't violent? I don't understa

I wouldn't say I am. This particular strand started off with other posters saying:
"11 violent sex offending men in one prison all decide they are actually women."
"Where does the report say they are violent?"

which led to assertions about how all sex offenders will have committed sexual violence. Just commenting on that strand of things. No it doesn't affect other matters such as whether there will be safety concerns, but people were discussing this strand and making assertions.

Datun Seriously? We might have made up the language to label it, but the classification isn't an invention.

Sounds like you agree with me. The objective fact that there exist characteristics X, Y & Z is a different type of fact than the institutional one that these elements have been denoted with label A. That label A means this.

It is a fallacy to conflate these different kinds of facts under the umbrella of "biological facts" and act as if people who want words and language to mean different things are doing the same thing as someone disputing an objective fact such as the shape of the Earth.

Just saying "biological facts" is not a shield conferred by reality itself, if the specific parts of it you are asserting are human-mmade bits.

Datun · 21/08/2017 16:02

We decide that certain biological facts means the word woman.

If you want the word woman to suddenly include extra biological facts, like a penis, then you've change the definition of the word woman. And you will now have to find another one to replace it - because the facts haven't changed.

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 21/08/2017 16:11

The difference at the younger age is TG that are supported in young age are less likely to have mental health problems as they grow older.

Can you offer any proof for this? Or is it just hoped?

bambambini · 21/08/2017 22:52

"As for 'suck my dick', no words really. I do sort of want to say 'at least TRY' when I see Danielle's beard and moustache. I really think it's doing a disservice to those with genuine gender dysphoria who go through hell to transition."

Danielle is trying. Think she's on hormones.

To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?
Datun · 21/08/2017 23:02

The difference at the younger age is TG that are supported in young age are less likely to have mental health problems as they grow older.

Tell that to Jazz Jennings. The poster boy for transgenderism.

Who has the face of a girl, the body of a woman through artificial hormones, and the genitals of a prepubescent boy. Who has no libido and no functional sex life. He will never have a proper sex life. He does not have enough penile material to create a neovagina.

So it will need to be made from parts of his colon, or thigh. He will never orgasm. If he chooses to have a neovagina, he will have to dilate it every few hours to begin with and then regularly for the rest of his life otherwise it will close up. He will be on lifelong, untested hormones. He is permanently sterile.

He is depressed. He is 17. No one wants to date him.

His parents claim that every single decision was made by him, starting when he was five. The decision to go on hormones was made when he was at primary school.

The justification is that he wanted to wear a tutu and liked playing with girls' toys.

If you leave gender nonconforming children alone they generally grow up gay.

Jazz is attracted to males, not females. Which makes him heterosexual.

I will not be taking any bets as to whether jazz Jennings will be maturing into a well adjusted individual, happy and fulfilled.

SmileEachDay · 22/08/2017 01:19

Yep. Many of the young transitioners are STILL young. We have no real idea about what the implications will be.

QuentinSummers · 22/08/2017 08:24

Anyone listen to R5 yesterday morning? They were discussing the proposed new online hate crime (I broadly think this is a good idea)
As a phone in guest they had a TW and asked her about online abuse she had recieved, her example was that she had become president of the local feminist group organising a reclaim the night March and people had questioned her right to do that (mean TERFS in other words).
If that kind of thing becomes a crime under the new law then we are totally silenced, I'm hoping that's not the intent but did find it interesting they approached a TW
In the evening they had Gaby from Love Island talking about racist abuse she's had for dating Marcel which seemed a bit less politicised.

Datun · 22/08/2017 08:37

If that kind of thing becomes a crime under the new law then we are totally silenced,

That's horrific. The point of feminism is to liberate women from the oppression of men. And now it will be a hate crime if they don't agree to putting the men in charge of that?!

Showandtell · 22/08/2017 08:40

All the possibile hate crimes they could have reported and it was a TW saying she'd been called a lesbian Hmm

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/08/2017 08:56

Given the TERF is a Slur page and the truly hateful and inciteful of violence things that are said about feminists and sometimes women-born-women more generally it seems mightily over sensitive of the MtT above to whine that people were questioning her right to be head of a women's organisation. Anyway, given that women leaders are especially targetted by trolls and given that women rising above the glass ceiling anywhere are second-guessed, questioned and told they are only there because they are women, it's something that if she really, really wants to be a woman (you know, with its disadvantages and all) that she'd better get used to.

BeyondQueenOfLists · 22/08/2017 10:23

So Japab (why oh why am I even asking!!), if a certain set of biological characteristics no longer means male/man/boy or female/woman/girl, can you offer me a new definition for male/man/boy and female/woman/girl?

Rumandraisin1 · 22/08/2017 12:11

Does the proposed new online hate crime guidance include hate crime against women? Women (particularly women who dare to have an opinion on ANYTHING) seem to get the worst online abuse. The news item I saw mentioned 'gender' but it wasn't clear whether that meant women or transgender - and given that attacks and abuse of women aren't regarded as a hate crime off-line I'm not optimistic.

SmileEachDay · 22/08/2017 12:12

I don't think they do Rum because women are not a minority...

Rumandraisin1 · 22/08/2017 12:43

So TRAs will be able to continue with their rape threats and death threats unimpeded but woe betide any woman who dares to state a biological fact?

QuentinSummers · 22/08/2017 20:35

rum it looks like it's the same as offline crime so no, abuse on the grounds of being female is just common or garden abuse, not hate crime. Abuse on the grounds of being transgender is a hate crime.
I don't know in reality what that will mean if someone posts something perceived as transphobic. Hopefully a bit of common sense will be applied.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/21/cps-to-crack-down-on-social-media-hate-says-alison-saunders

Gingernaut · 23/08/2017 21:03

From Feminist Current's Faceache page

www.feministcurrent.com/2017/08/22/calling-women-non-men-isnt-inclusive-sexism-straight-ancient-history/