to be shocked by teenage girls clothing lately

[fcek]

I have my DNiece age 14 on facebook. When she likes a friend's photo, it sometimes appears on my newsfeed (and DH's newsfeed)

DNiece is a sensible girl but like most kids she has everyone at school on her facebook.

So this photo she liked appeared on our facebook newsfeeds today and my DH is shocked and disgusted.

The friend of DNiece is 14. We've met her a few times. She looks older than she is, part due to her height and her development (she's very womanly already) and part due to her clothing being adult woman rather than a 14 year old.

But in this picture, its just awful what she is wearing. She's doing pretty much a kim kardashian bathroom selfie, with a kim kardashian style swimsuit. The ones that cover only half the boob and pushes up your tits. The kind you would see on a lads mag. It's just awful awful.

I thought to myself how can her parents let her dress like that, maybe they aren't on facebook, but low and behold her mother is and has liked and commented on that photo plus others.

Looking through DNiece's other friends (none of whom seem to have private facebook pages) there are quite a few others with very revealing photos.

There's guys with joints, alcohol, knives etc.

DNiece dresses appropriately when I see her, her pictures are all normal 14 year old pictures, but I am a bit concerned about who she is friends with but I won't say...not really my place.

Is this what teenage years are like now? I'm worried about my DD's next few year now.

I know I may get flamed for commenting on what someone wears though. Name changed so no one in RL recognises us

@toad jezebel.com/judge-who-called-rape-victim-older-than-her-chronologic-1586252366

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/bath-news/not-guilty-bath-man-toby-309125.amp

@Natalia "Men are biologically driven to want to have sex with women."

No shit Sherlock! Do you really think that we don't know that?

What about women finding men attractive? Are you one of those people who think women have no sex drive, that teenage girls don't look at good looking boys and fantasise? Of course they do!

But women and girls haven't been given the green light to go ahead and objectify men in quite the same way. We are not surrounded by images of semi naked men inviting us to consume their bodies in the same way. We don't feel it is our right to cat call good looking men in the street.

All that biological attraction is perfectly natural. What isn't natural is the extent to which girls and women are expected to present themselves as physically attractive.

Oh god Rita this is what we are dealing with!!! It's a disgrace. I'm sorry but the two men that say they didn't know the age, obviously the teacher can't come out with that crap!!! Can not possible say they didn't realise they were young. No matter how grown up a 12yr old looks they are still obviously underage or do women really see people differently!!!

New York I think females in general are objectified no matter the tone of their skin. Obviously everyone has their preference it just so happens that your work colleagues all fancy a similar type, yawn for them and I'm glad she didn't hear them either but hopefully she wouldn't touch them with a barge pole any way so it's no loss to her.

because I think these kind of feminist arguments simply ignore or refuse to accept the nature of male sexuality

I wasn't making a "feminist argument", rather a comment borne out of frustration at sexualised comments and harassment from the age of 14. I also can't see why the onus should be on women and girls to dress to avoid being subject to harassment (not that this is possible seeing as the first instance of sexual harassment for many, myself included, was in school uniform and girls in school uniform suffer comments such as that which Mustang27 overheard). I'm also unclear as to how I should choose clothes which "cover my body" (not that any woman or girl should have to). My breasts are quite sizeable (and they're not sexual as someone said above, they're body parts) and are quite noticeable in most clothing I can wear, especially in the summer. To imply I'm trying to show off my body because I'm not able to wear clothes which entirely cover and don't show certain body parts is ridiculous.

On another note, there's also a more general point on the kind of clothing which is widely made for and marketed to girls. The coverage on clothing widely sold to girls is far less than the equivalents for boys - shorts are far shorter and tighter on girls, as are t-shirts, jeans far slimmer and tighter and so on. It's not surprising many girls will wear such clothing when this is the majority of what's marketed to us and deemed "feminine" and "fashionable". As was also pointed out by Henrythehoover, girls can't win - we're constantly fed messages that our worth is our appearance and value linked to how desirable we are to boys, then derided when that message is internalised.

In terms of clothes being sexualised, though, this implication is in my opinion victim blaming. A very common theme in pornography is "schoolgirls", "sexy schoolgirl" outfits are commonly sold for parties, so many clearly see girls' school uninform as "sexualised". In fact, any clothing a woman or girl wears has probably been sexualised in some pornography - secretary, businesswoman and so forth - probably why women and girls are harassed (and worse) no matter what we're wearing.

Thank you for the support ISaySteadyOn, IfyouseeRitaMoreno, Mustang27 and others!

IfyouseeRitaMoreno

I will respond properly tomorrow (getting late here), but in brief, none the cases you mention refute my point. You are welcome to post more in the meantime.

Mustang I know! What gets me is that it seems to be accepted by all that as soon as a girl reaches 16 she is fair game. Barely Legal is a porn genre FGS!

Let girls grow up in their own time. Let them experiment, let them come into their sexuality in a safe environment where they do not have to be afraid of being taken advantage of.

My maths tutor definitely knew my age. It was winter so i was wearing a bulky massive sweater(even if it was summer I was in my "hiding away" phase ) . Neither of those facts stopped him fondling my breasts,under my sweater, at a table with 5 other girls while showing me the answer to a maths problem.
I was 13 when my classmates tried to rape me,playing cards in a long tshirt and shorts.
I was 14 when my grandfather so kindly asked to feel my young,perky breasts. In tracksuit bottoms and (my bad) a vest.
I could keep going..

Right so we would all be prudent to minimise aspects of our appearance that might encourage sexual harassment.

My legs attract attention whatever I wear. Even in the most unflattering combinations they get more looks and comments than most people get in a mini skirt and heels. My friends chest is the same, again gets more attention in a loose baggy top than most women do in a push up bra and low cut top. Do we deserve/ encourage perverts because of our body shapes?

So am I now obliged to live in maxi dresses to cover aspects of my appearance that encourage sexual harassment? And my friend should bind her breasts and wear a smock? However I'm ok to expose the visible ribs on my chest and she is ok to expose her shorter & wider legs because neither of those physical qualities make the list of appearances that invite male harassment.

Should I now tell dd that she is no longer allowed to like her physiche because of what it can do for her, based on the fact it will also attract unwanted male attention? 'No dear ditch the thigh length t-shirt and docs because you still look good and males will be unable to control themselves, and stop the exercise so your legs go to skin and bone instead of lean muscle to ward off perverts'

I think not. Unwanted attention is entirely down to the perpetrators, not down to the females appearance.

Excellent post Lurkedforever1 - I agree entirely.

Lurked i've always had that with my legs, but wearing trousers too?

quite @Lurkedforever. The rules regarding what girls should and shouldn't cover vary from culture to culture yet men's relative freedom from judgement is a constant.

The moment we let the male gaze restrict what we wear we start on a dangerous path.

Lurker, whilst I agree with you that our bodies are not to blame, would you not consider the context when dressing one day or another? Would you not think that in certain situations a woman might be at harms way because of the way is dressed, even though that's the fault of the abuser? The first perpetrators are usually family, friends or people in the close circle and in those cases it doesn't really matter what you are wearing. When abuse it's from strangers, they often happen as a consequence of internet grooming, or in situations where a woman is more vulnerable like dark isolated places like car parks or paths, hotel rooms, end streets, cars... In those cases, would you not take measures to make yourself safer? Would you not avoid going alone? Or book a black cab? Or drink in control? The girls who are groped or raped after passing out to alcohol are not to blame, but the situation allows men without an ounce of respect to use them as sexual toys. Even though the right thing would be to educate men and change the way society sexualise women, what can we do in the meantime to protect ourselves? For a start, not walking alone late at night in problematic areas, not getting so drunk (and alone) that someone could abuse us, etc. in my opinion, for a 14yo this includes "not posting sexy pics in revealing clothing on the internet with a public profile", as it would lure a lot of attention from strangers. That was the starting point of the thread and the discussion about clothing. In certain situations, in my opinion, the clothing is relevant because the way it is interpreted. It does not excuse the behaviour of the perpetrator, but when the perpetrator might be looking for victims, certain clothing might put the focus on one person and not another. Clothing has meaning and we are not immune to it. If at the waiting room for an interview we saw four people dressed respectively in pyjamas, a business suit, gym clothes and jeans; most people would logically think that the person in business suit is the one waiting for the interview. If they all were waiting for the interview, we would probably assume that the one in smart clothing is more professional and experienced. Although wrong, young girls in revealing clothing might be interpreted as sexually available, sexually curious or experienced, which would attract the wrong kind of person to their profile. These girls need to be given strategies to be safe, and depending on the girl and their personality, that might range from insisting that they have private profiles only to not allowing them to post those pictures online.

For a start, not walking alone late at night in problematic areas,

These teenage girls were walking in broad daylight in the London Borough of Richmond upon Thames, in the first case in school uniform, didn't stop men choosing to assault them: www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/news/15339336.Mother_speaks_out_about_sex_attacker_who_assaulted_her__brave__daughter_after_getting_off_Twickenham_bus/?ref=mrb&lp=3
www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/police-step-up-patrols-after-15yearold-girl-sexually-assaulted-in-twickenham-a3592681.html

Also, how can women always avoid walking alone? If a friend walks one woman home, who walks the friend home? The vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by a perpetrator known to the victim - should women and girls avoid getting to know any boys or men?

As for clothing, it has no relevance or bearing whatsoever to sexual violence. Only the choice of those who commit these crimes does - shown as women and girls of all ages are assaulted in all clothing, including school uniform. To state otherwise is victim blaming.

Sadly rapists are very progressive and all for equal opportunities, they take no notice of age,religion,race,clothing or behaviours.

heart on my budget the only trousers I can get to fit are jeans and plain black work trousers, and neither of those disguise their length and still indicate their shape.

jedi I get where you're coming from but I see it differently. Choosing not to get blind drunk with strangers is a decision I would make for safety in that specific situation. Choosing to change my loose running shorts and hiking boots to a floor length loose skirt to avoid being leered at when I walk the dogs isn't a decision for that moment, it would be changing who I am and living in fear.

As for appearance and behaviour I agree entirely with rebel. Rapists might use that as an excuse after the fact, it doesn't make it the cause.

Jedimum1

Your focus seems to be that wearing less revealing clothes is a way to prevent the chance of rape, which is statistically inaccurate as both NoLove and I have stated, 90 percent of rape happens by someone the victim already knows. Victims of rape are not victims because of the clothing they wear and those 10 percent who were raped by strangers were not necessarily wearing sexually implicit clothing.

So in order to protect ourselves against a crime as you stated, rather than wear longer clothes and hide our bodies which would not make any difference as most rapes don't happen as a result of this, should we instead refuse to form bonds with males in case they later rape us?

Something I mulled over while being on this thread...
I wonder how a girl being raised amongst such opinions would react if she were to be assaulted while wearing something revealing. Would she be outraged and ask for help,or would she blame herself,agonising whether to tell or not and thinking "if only I didn't wear this top like mum/dad/aunty x/miss y said"?

NoLoveofMine I think the key part is this: we're constantly fed messages that our worth is our appearance and value linked to how desirable we are to boys, then derided when that message is internalised

My point is and always has been that children shouldn't be internalising that message, and that is what we should be working on- not encouraging them and saying 'oh you look great, love your facebook photos, why don't you buy yourself a new crop top, it's your right to do what you want in terms of what you wear (whilst implying that it is not their right to do what they want in terms of what they want to be etc)'

I am not angry with teenage girls wanting to look like that on their facebook profiles. I am angry that society has taught them that that is how they appear most valuable, and if I were her parent I would do everything in my power to protect my daughter from feeling that way.

@perper saying " you're too sexual,men can't help themselves,cover up! I'm shocked and disgusted at the way you look in that" isn't the right way to go about it either.

perper

You also continually ignore the fact that clothing does not cause rape 9 times out of 10 too...

RebelRogue I haven't said anything remotely like that... Please don't confuse me with what someone else somewhere may have implied.

britainteascones Also haven't said anything remotely like that and it's not even slightly linked to what I just said, so I've 'ignored' it in the same way that I've 'ignored' talking about how my flowerpots have blown over in the wind- it's not relevant to my point.

Perper I totally agree with your comment about society telling young girls how to value themselves... look really thin , display your tits, and bum, pout, etc. I find it really really sad. This is how women are taught to value themselves. How they look, not what they think and feel, who they are, what they do. Just how 'hot' they appear. By dressing in a way that buys into this they just perpetuate it. I was having a conversation with some relatives I don't particularly like, about Melania Trump. I raised the question ' I wonder what is actually going on in her head, why she is with Trump, how she feels being part of that circus.' The answer they both gave (male and female) was 'but she looks great doesn't she, and I'm sure she loves all the shopping'. I was speechless. Sadly, this is how a lot of society views women... never mind if they are depressed, sad, uncomfortable, as long as they have big tits and are thin, it really doesn't matter. i sometimes wonder what on earth happened to Women's Lib in the 60's. It's well gone as far as I can see.

rebel goes without saying it would be the latter, hence why rape has historically been viewed as shame on the victims and excusable for the perpetrators.

I've never been sexually harassed by gay women and nobody would suggest that choice of attire is encouraging lesbians to molest other women, nor is it an experience females of all ages have endured. Nor has anyone mentioned that the girl in the op might be encouraging older lesbians to leer. And yet gay women are physically attracted to other women. But they don't go round leering, groping and raping and pretend the victims were dressed provocatively. Which goes to prove that sexual harrasment isn't inspired by being sexually attractive, it's inspired by the male that commits it.