AIBU to suggest exP stays overnight to support DD with SEN and MH problems?

[FeistyColl]

DD (12) has an ASD and extreme anxiety. She has been unable to attend school for over 3 years and is now funded to be educated at home. She has extreme separation anxiety and following a traumatic event 2 years ago has not been able to cope with me leaving the house without her. I have had to give up work and spend every day with her. I split from ExP before she was born but he has been involved in her life from the start, albeit largely on a visitor basis.
ExP and his dw live about 45 mins drive away from us. They have been together since DD was a baby and they have been married 8 years - no dc. I live alone with DD.

ExP visits DD here twice a week (6.30- 9 pm) and comes every other Saturday until about 10 pm. DD hates it when he goes, and often gets very distressed. She anticipates him leaving and this spoils her time with him. I have asked if he could stay later so that he could settle her to sleep, but he says he doesn’t feel safe driving that distance home on his motorbike late at night (he has a number of quite serious health issues). DD’s MH has deteriorated yet further - she self-harms and has talked about wishing she was dead. I suggested to exP that during the school holidays he could stay over on a couple of occasions (he teaches so is free) in order to give DD a full day without the stress of him leaving. He has done this once and it was a real success. DD was able to relax and they were able to go out and enjoy the day with no time pressure knowing her Dad wasn’t going anywhere. She coped absolutely fine when he left the next day.

But, I have received an email from exP’s dw which includes “Finally, I find it unreasonable for you to expect (exP) to spend whole nights at your house, whatever the circumstances.”

So before I reply, I need to know, AIBU to suggest he stays over for DD’s sake?

I agree with Gamerchick, I don't think your idea will work, it will just reinforce anxiety.

In fairness, it's your idea that he stay over, not that of professionals involved, that both GC and I don't think will work.

I totally agree your dd needs a positive relationship with her dad. Just not sure him staying over is the way to go.

Not a criticism of you in anyway. Not an unreasonable idea to put to your ex, however not unreasonable for him to say no either.

My sincere apologises if I upset or offended you, really not my intention

No offence taken at all. As I say, I have appreciated all opinions.

I agree with Gamerchick, I don't think your idea will work, it will just reinforce anxiety.

I have a slightly older DD who couldn't leave my side a year ago. For 15 months, she was with me literally 24/7 with the exception of six hours a week doing an activity she could sometimes manage. There were good reasons behind her anxiety related to trauma and abuse in school.

People kept telling me that I was reinforcing her anxiety by allowing her to be with me. I was told by well-meaning professionals who were not qualified in mental health that the only solution was graded exposure. I should make her stay somewhere without me and then she would find out she was safe. Interestingly, CAMHS who saw her every 2 weeks for 2 years never expressed that view.

I knew that we couldn't force her to expose herself to the things she feared. She had to want to do it.

We fought for an won a place in an ASD specialist residential school for her. She wanted to go there because she knew she would feel safe there.

She went from sticking to me like glue every minute of the day to attending school full time in one week. Nobody made her go. She knew she could come home any time she wanted. She never asked once. Her statement details that nobody should put pressure on her to make progress. It has to come from her. The school staff understood this and never, ever pushed her.

Lots of people disagreed with my decisions. Lots of people told me it wouldn't work. It did. She has just spent a really happy 3 days at pony club camp.

She created her safe bubble, school joined her in the bubble. Now her world is getting bigger by the day but only because she feels safe enough to make it happen. She pushes herself when she know that the environment is right and the support is in place.

OP, I hope that your DD will find what she needs to take those steps towards independence very soon and you can both begin to lead a less restricted life.

Thanks Goldmandra. Stories like yours really help! This approach is totally supported by our CAMHS psychiatrist and is specified on her EHCP. It is great to hear such positive stories from others further down the path

Goldmandra, my agreement with gamerchick was having ex staying over, maybe not being the best idea.

I'm not quite getting if OP's dd is able to go quite happily to her dad's for a few hours, why OP is not building on that, rather than having her ex come to her 3 times a week and trying to increase on this aspect.

I'm not quite getting if OP's dd is able to go quite happily to her dad's for a few hours, why OP is not building on that, rather than having her ex come to her 3 times a week and trying to increase on this aspect.

I think there are probably reasons that the OP doesn't want to discuss on here.

I found it very difficult to communicate why I could do one thing with my DD but not another.

She could spend several hours away from me to go to one sort of specialist provision for children with behavioural and emotional difficulties but not leave my side for a single second in a different place because it was next door to a unit for children with that same profile of needs. It didn't make sense until you really got under the skin of it when you found it was actually about how the adults responded to those children, not the children themselves.

I was criticised harshly for letting her 'get away' with refusing to be in one place and while she was sometimes able to go to another that seemed to be the same.

Lots of people looking in from outside couldn't understand but, in the end, my approach turned out the be successful.

OP, I have every sympathy for your situation, it really sounds like a living hell for both you and your DD. And I guess you are "happy" (for want of a better word) with the rules and restrictions DD places on your life, a) because you're used to it and b) because the alternative is much worse, but honestly, to me it sounds absolutely intolerable. The idea of never being able to pop to a corner shop on my own without my DD, and having to stay at home whenever my DD went out... honestly it makes my chest feel tight, to be that controlled and restricted 24/7.

So I don't blame you for craving the respite of having your ex stay over occasionally. But how much of a difference does it make to DD? If the anticipation of him leaving spoils every visit, how does she react when she wakes up in the morning and knows that he has to leave? Why is leaving in the morning better than leaving in the evening? Is it just that she's benefitted from being able to call upon him in the middle of the night instead of you, and she's satisfied and reassured by him proving his love for her, like that? Because if that's the case, it isn't healthy. It's adding another layer to her intense need for security, but it's also (consciously or unconsciously) a little manipulative.

I agree with gamerchick that you need to work towards a more long term plan, that involves the two of you breaking out of this horrible situation you're in. I honestly wish you all the best. I feel like you're a better and more patient person than I am, that's for sure.

Shedmicehugh she does sometimes go to his house but as it is a 45 minute journey each way she finds it very difficult. I obviously can't take her and drop her off (as I was able to do a few years ago), so it requires her Dad to drive here then drive back with DD, then drive DD home and then drive to his home again at the end of the day. She is only able to manage a couple of hours at a time there. Her dad tries really hard to find incentives to get her over to his but she finds it very very difficult. From my previous post

Exp comes over 2 x a week after work for 2.5 hours. He tries to get her out of the house e.g to eat but this is extremely variable. Going to his house is not an option for purely practical reasons.

Every other Saturday he sees her between 11 a.m. and 10 pm. He would take her back to his house every time if she would go - but she can't. I would drive over to his house with DD every time if she would go - but she can't. Occasionally she is able to go but it is stressful and difficult, and she can only manage a couple of hours. (things were different a few years ago but this has been the situation for at least 3 years now)

There simply isn't a secure base from which to 'build' time at her Dad's. The more she is 'encouraged' to go, the less likely it is to happen. There are also other factors/ history that I do not want to discuss here. But exP and I are in complete agreement. I am not 'holding DD back' from building a better relationship with her dad and dw away from me.

My original request to exP was simply to stay as long it took to settle DD when he visited during school holidays so 1) I could hand over responsibility / go to bed and 2) to enable exP to re-establish the parenting role rather than a visitor role. I used the word 'reliance' in a previous post which was picked up on, but all I meant was an opportunity for DD to experience being looked after by him right until she went to sleep, thus rebuilding trust. DD's psychiatrist fully supports this idea in principal. The issue of sleeping over only arose out of practicalities.

He was able to stay over once last week and it was a really positive experience. I understand why people might think that this would reinforce DD wanting him to be here more, but neither I nor her therapist think this. I have a phone appointment with her psychiatrist tomorrow so will discuss with her. Counterintuitive it may be, but our experience so far, has been that the usual approaches don't work. Her diagnosis is 'Atypical asd' and atypical approaches are required.

DD's response to this was SO positive, after a very long period of self- harm and suicidal thoughts, I would like to be able to build on this, hence my original question.

Did you decide on how often your ex would stay over? Or how long this would go on for?
It's one thing if it's for X amount of time but it's not ideal for longterm.
Perhaps you need to plan this in detail with an agreement to review it after X weeks?

The issue is really that DD feels that he doesn't stay long enough to be a proper dad....she wants him to do the bedtime stuff that most parents do sometimes in the holidays

I suppose you could encourage/re-inforce her that spending time at her dad's is the best way to achieve this?

She has zero self esteem and feels that she is in some way not important enough or he would stay as long as necessary
How has she previously dealt with having a NRP?

YABU

Why don't you invite her to come over and stay too?

^
This

Would ex dp and his wife be able to stay over ?

Xpost.

HeyRoly "you need to work towards a more long term plan, that involves the two of you breaking out of this horrible situation you're in"

We have a long term plan - it's her EHCP but it isn't a magic wand sadly.

DD is as keen to break out as I am. Any sort of 'cruel to be kind' approach or 'tough love' would be immensely detriment. I know for certain because we have been there, and we still have to heal the consequences of those experiences along with all the other issues.

Totally happy to invite dw too.

To me the whole situation is unreasonable. Your life sounds really awful- sorry to be blunt. Especially the fact that you describe this as a few years since she can even stay at her dads- so an 8/9yr old has been controlling the lives of 3 adults is such a huge way. I don't think your methods have worked. Pandering to the fear and letting asking him to stay seems more like a quick fix but would actually just reinforce everything.

I can see everything from your POV and see why you ask for ex to stay over. You need a break. I'm guessing ex loves DD very much and understand why he did but it's all a bit ridiculous. Every parent's live should revolve around their child but not to this extent!

BeepBeep what an incredibly ignorant comment to make when the OP has already mentioned trying different methods, that not "pandering" has caused further damage and that they are now moving on to other methods with a new treatment regime about to start.

Feisty in other posts you have said your dd will go out with dad, swimming, walk to town etc and that she has spent many days at your ex's over the last 12 years, been on 4 overnight camping trips with her dad etc.

Now as I think I understand it this hasn't happened for 3/4 years? It's a bit confusing to read!

In other posts you have said you want your ex to stay over to stop your dd getting anxious about him leaving. Then in others the real issue is he doesn't stay long enough and your dd wants him to do her bedtime routine. He stays to 9pm twice a week and 10pm on Saturday. What time is her bedtime routine?

You say Dd's psychiatrist fully supports your idea of dd experiencing being looked after by him until she went to sleep.

Why is a psychiatrist fully supporting your idea which involves your ex, without consulting him or without his consent?

It's all a bit confusing!

Goldmandra if the OP cannot discuss why her dd cannot go to the ex's it makes it difficult to decide if her request is unreasonable or not!

I too have some understanding of the OP's situation. I have a child with ASD/self harming/suicidal/struggles to leave the house or have a relationship with anyone but me etc. Has been signed off school by CAMHS several times, home schooled previously, still in therapy now etc. At one point I couldn't leave ds alone, not even for a second, as he was subject to a CAMHS safety plan. I was on suicidal watch 24/7.

I totally understand me and home being his safe place and that ds worries whenever he leaves, something bad will happen to me etc.

I am not being unsympathetic. I too have a success story. My ds now happily attends a specialist school, his anxiety etc has lowered etc.

I'm not suggesting that the OP leave her DD for any length of time. Just that stretching comfort zones very gradually has been successful for us. Had I not stretched them, ds would still be out of school and we would both be unable to leave the house.

I can't judge at all whether your idea is the best thing to do or not, this is a very complicated situation and one that's outside my own experience. My own DS has an ASC and some of the things I did to lower DS's anxiety were maybe unconventional and had quite a major effect on my own life and DH's, but not on the scale that you have been doing them, and they didn't affect other people so much. (DS is now having a whale of a time at university so I claim success though of course I can't say how it would have turned out if we'd done differently!)

Since you proposed something that crosses a boundary for your DD's stepmother, it might take some diplomacy to achieve. And while that's very much your ex-H's job, if I was in the stepmother's shoes I would find it reassuring to have some clear professional support and structure for this plan. I'd want to know whether the support is just "well ok it might be worth a try if everyone is happy with it" or "yes this is what we strongly recommend for DD, here is what we hope to achieve, here's how you will all know if it is working, and here's (some kind of) timeframe". I'm not saying that this is possible or that stepmother is entitled to it, but it's what would reassure me!

The issue is really that DD feels that he doesn't stay long enough to be a proper dad....she wants him to do the bedtime stuff that most parents do sometimes in the holidays

That seems a different issue from ASC-type anxiety or trauma though the ASC and trauma will complicate it further. There's an argument that it's not a good idea to reinforce all DD's current notions of what a "proper Dad" does because a "proper divorced Dad" is a different deal from a "proper Dad who lives with Mum". So I can kind of see where the stepmother is coming from, letting DD blur the boundaries may be a valid concern for her. Very tricky situation!

Excellent post from Klein above.

IF you and dd's therapists are all in agreement your ex staying over is a best idea, what we think on AIBU is totally irrelevant!

A structured plan from the therapist, on what you are all hoping to achieve, as Klein suggests would be the best way to convince your ex and his dw.

I'm not suggesting that the OP leave her DD for any length of time. Just that stretching comfort zones very gradually has been successful for us. Had I not stretched them, ds would still be out of school and we would both be unable to leave the house.

I think stretching comfort zones is really successful for many children and adults and I'm really pleased it worked for your DS.

The problem is that, because it works a lot of the time, it is very hard for people to accept when a child is one of the few for whom it doesn't work. It has never worked for my DD. It has always been very clearly counter-productive and it has also been very hard to get people who don't have sufficient knowledge and experience to accept that.

There have been far too many occasions when well-meaning adults have decided to prove to me that stretching DD's comfort zones would work and done something that has ended up traumatising her further and reduced her ability to access provision.

I can see that this is hard to understand but I am quite sure that CAMHS would have let the OP know if they felt she wasn't taking the right approach.

Gold I haven't suggested this approach would work for the OP. I appreciate it's not the only approach. I appreciate, as with my ds sometimes it's an approach that works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes multiple approaches are needed etc.

I have questioned what the therapists thought of the OP's approach (not knowing the full facts myself, in a bid to try and decide if OP's request was unreasonable) OP has now confirmed the therapists are in agreement.

So my thoughts of what I initially thought was an idea of the OPs, by what she had posted, are totally irrelevant.

if OP, her ex and all the therapists are in agreement it's the best approach then DW is being unreasonable for not being willing to give it a try under the guidance of a therapist. My advice would have been ways of trying to get DW on board.

From the start OP has not made it clear whether her ex thinks it's the best approach. OP had not made it clear whether therapists thought it the best approach. The impression I got was this was OP's idea. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea, it has just led to suggestions of why it may not work.