To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult

[riverotter]

DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

He was at a friend's house last night and I picked him up at just after 8. The mum seemed a bit quiet and this morning she sent a text asking if we could talk so I called her.

Her version is that DS shouted and slammed a glass down on the table and it made everybody feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I asked what brought it on and she said it was because her mum, so his friend's grandma, had offered DS a sandwich!

So I spoke to DS. He started crying and said he did but he didn't really like any of them so kept saying no thank you, no thank you. But apparently the gran kept saying go on, have one, they are nice, I've been making these all afternoon. He said she was waving one in his face when he shouted 'no, I said no.' (I actually taught him that phrase a while back.)

So - discipline or not? I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate rudeness but I hate people who won't say no for an answer as well.

And yes, to that previous poster, at ten I would have known better. He's year off secondary school not a bloody 4 year old.

No, thats not quite what I said. He didn't have to eat it all. Leave it on his plate, nibble a bit of crust at most.

Was there not other food on offer? Was he sitting there with an empty plate?

Assuming there was other food, it's simple. Take other food, plus token sandwich. Eat a bit of crust, no filling (you said it was the filling he didn't like, not that he doesn't eat bread, so presumably that would be fine). Eat other food. Leave 95% of sandwich at end of meal. No issue.

If there was no other food and it was being offered as a snack or something while theyre playing or watching tv, he just takes one and doesn't eat it.

I think I'd want to speak to the other parent again to understand the context better.

It's quite common for people to offer things a few times as they may assume the other person is being reserved or shy, especially a child

It is not quite common to wave sandwiches in childrens faces while they keep repeating no thank you, to the point you upset them.

Appalling rudeness. If this child was a guest in my house, no way would he be allowed back. Shocking.

He is, normally, a delight.

It is not a common occurence for him to explode.

I have already said the family are English.

I wouldn't discipline but I would have a discussion along the lines of "oh dear, you got stressed so you did something you really don't want to do in these situations, let's think it through to make sure it doesn't happen again".

People are saying, is that what really happened? Is this the full story. I word be inclined to believe the child tbf. I don't think your hearing the full story from the host family, especially if this is unusual for your D's. How can he learn respect, if he's not respected. A sandwich first, than what next, afraid of saying no, to something making him feel bad like sexual abuse.

Velvet it was a buffet type picnic thing. He had eaten. He just happened not to want a sandwich.

I wasn't saying it was in anyway the same as drugs or crime etc, I was saying the reason that some children get dragged into drugs/crime/sex etc and particularly when they are older get groomed and end up in abusive relationships for too long is because we teach them to be polite and they take this message out of context and don't say no to dreadful things when they hear the initial alarm bells.

This politeness training that we do is misused by groomers all the time.

What I was saying was that OP is better with a child that did the wrong thing in this situation (over reacted) than with a child who did the wrong thing in those bad situations by under reacting.

Kids make mistakes. It's how they learn. I find it frightening how many people still teach their kids to be unquestioningly obedient and polite to all adults. Abusers love this.

I'm also quite concerned that the child is assumed to be lying about the Granny waving the sandwich in his face. Perhaps when a child says a grownup touched them inappropriately they would be lying about that too.

And no I'm not saying feeding children Mrs Doyle style is child abuse. I'm just trying to explain why OP might be pleased her child stood up for himself, even though he went about it the wrong way.

Aside from this thread OP I think we need a big discussion on here about this idea that kids need to be "taught a lesson" all the time - not encouraged and shown how to deal with awkward situations etc - and the idea that by 4 or 6 or 10 or 15 they should bloody well know how to make themselves more acceptable to adults.

Someone was saying earlier that children should not think they are equal to adults - so how does that work then, they are meant to have the wisdom of adults, but also to know precisely how they are "less"? They are meant to "grow up", they "need to learn" but apparently only to deal with adults whims and anger?

And how old is this poor old Granny? I bet she's in her 50s or 60s, so same age as me. If she was 80 then her behaviour would be more understanable. But still not ok, she needs to learn eh?

Appalling rudeness. If this child was a guest in my house, no way would he be allowed back

Appallig rudeness from the adult who is old enough to know better. If my child was the guest in your house, damn right they wouldn't be allowed back, I wouldn't let them go!

Why is every focusing on the supposed rudeness of a young child and not on the rudeness of someone decades older?

Unsure and stressed. Oh god are you one of those my kid can do no wrong types? Who bring up adults who don't know wrong? And can't handle social situations?

How often did she ask him, cmon really?

Would you like a sandwich
No
Oh that's a shame, are you sure, we are all having one.
No really thanks
But they are lovely look, have one with us.
No, I said no, slams glass in table,

Mum - did you do this
Son- cries, yes, but I don't like any of them and she asked me more than once.
Mum - wow, I'm impressed. I'm so proud you were rude to people you don't like whilst in their home enjoying their hospitality. How dare the granny make You sandwiches and repeatedly offer you one. I know I shall ask mumsnet
Mumsnet is this ok
No
Ah poor baby was just stressed and unsure. I'm sure he won't grow up to be a scarey volatile man who is unable to handle social situations and prone to angry violent explosions because I taught him it was ok. Nope. Not my little snowflake.

Velvet in a lot of families it would be considered the height of rudeness to take food, put it on your plate and then not eat it. It certainly wouldn't stop my mother in law, she would then badger me to eat what is on my plate.

Quite surprised to see so many people excusing the boy's behaviour to one degree or another. It is not acceptable to shout and slam things in this situation IMO. It doesn't matter how persistent the grandmother was in offering sandwiches. Even if one interprets her words as rude, surely it is not acceptable to counter perceived rudeness with more rudeness. Five-year-olds can understand that "she started it" is no excuse for their own poor behaviour.

Yes, it can be annoying when someone won't take no for an answer. And a child may not have learned how to handle this kind of awkward situation. I wouldn't punish this child but I would certainly talk to him about better strategies for coping with uncomfortable moments like this one. I agree with PPs that it would be helpful to equip him with a larger range of skills to deal with the wider world. If his only response to annoyance is shouting and aggression, that will do him no favours in the long run.

"Assuming there was other food, it's simple. Take other food, plus token sandwich. Eat a bit of crust, no filling (you said it was the filling he didn't like, not that he doesn't eat bread, so presumably that would be fine). Eat other food. Leave 95% of sandwich at end of meal. No issue."

Bloody hell, how long will it take to teach him all that, all the nuances, all the possible combinations? And clearly as my story above shows, leaving 95% of the sandwich at the end might have escalated into something else even worse!

Granny was out of order, he freaked out a bit.

Very selective reading there Bluntness

Very.

Bluntness my mil asks me 5 or 6 times, sometimes more not just once or twice.

Sometimes I read posts on here and wonder if some people can actually read?!

The op said her son said no thank you at first! Then after been badgered about it he lost his calm and said no I said no!

I had this with my friend and my dd other week. My friends daughter wanted to stay at my house so her and my dd had cooked up a little plan between them (they're both 6) and my dd came down telling me that xxxx was sleeping at our house. I said not tonight because your dads working away and if xxx wants to come home in the night I can't bring her home because you little sister will be in bed asleep. Off she went 2 mins later she was asking again I repeated. After the fifth time of her asking I said I've said no and I meant no quite firmly.

It's very annoying been bugged! Op I don't blame your son for what he said. The gran should have accepted no thank you in the first place. I usually go with would you like some of this.... no thank you..... are you sure?..... yes I don't want any thank you.....ok then it's here if you change your mind.

I don't think so op. I suspect I've hit a nerve.

But, I do worry about the volatile nature of his response.

It isn't that i think he can do no wrong. More that every time he has done something similar it is when he feels backed into a.corner. So clearly I need to help him cope with that.

Agree with the YANBU (apart from the glass slamming) posters.

Really important to teach our kids no means no, even if it hurts the occasional well meaning but rude granny's feelings.

Not sure what else he could have done - obs except from slamming the glass.

Some suggest lying....

Others continuing to refuse politely - he'd already tried that and from the sound of it noting other than taking and eating a sandwich would have placated her.

Some suggest taking the sandwich and not eating it. She'd already escalated to shaming him about her time making them can you really see that not leading on to pressure to eat it.

Yes, definitely get him to apologise to the other Mum for the glass slamming and maybe talk to the other Mum yourself and apologise that her mum was upset and ask that she not be so rude next time.

I don't think "discpline" (as in punishment) is necessary or appropriate. I do think an apology to his friend's mother and granny are necessary and will probably make your DS feel better.

He needs some explanation about the obligations between hosts and guests. There's an obligation on a guest to accept hospitality, as there's an obligation on a host to offer it. There are also family and cultural differences - in some places you have to keep eating and/or other people have to keep offering. He also needs to think about the granny's feelings. Sometimes people do have to accept food we don't really want for the sake of good manners and not hurting feelings.

I sympathise with your DS, but he needs to start learning that there are certain times when it's best to give in gracefully, and why, and to recognise those times and handle them diplomatically. That will stand him in good stead. So will apologising when things go wrong.

I'm ranting now. This has got my goat (anyone doing Mumsnet bingo there's one for you today).

Right, so a few posts above I've told a long story about being humiliated by a horrible woman over a cake. I've tried to explain in adult language how that felt, so all those who are saying the boy was in the wrong to be upset can try and put themselves in a child's place for a few moments. No one has commented on it. So I assume that the woman who forced me to eat some cake then humiliated me as I wouldn't eat the rest was to be pitied as she was old (she was the same age as I am now).

In those days, we DEFINITELY knew our place, and what a miserable place that could be when confronted with an entitled and beligerent adult. No one is saying slamming a glass is ok, but the OP has said over and over again she will talk to the boy about it. What more do you want? Are we looking for public floggings?

Staples, my dad had taught me all that (and proper table manners) before I started school.

It came along with the same lesson as 'if you've been given food and in the first mouthful you don't like it, swallow the mouthful you have. Don't spit it out on your plate, the table or into your hand' something a few adults I know still can't grasp!