To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult

[riverotter]

DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

He was at a friend's house last night and I picked him up at just after 8. The mum seemed a bit quiet and this morning she sent a text asking if we could talk so I called her.

Her version is that DS shouted and slammed a glass down on the table and it made everybody feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I asked what brought it on and she said it was because her mum, so his friend's grandma, had offered DS a sandwich!

So I spoke to DS. He started crying and said he did but he didn't really like any of them so kept saying no thank you, no thank you. But apparently the gran kept saying go on, have one, they are nice, I've been making these all afternoon. He said she was waving one in his face when he shouted 'no, I said no.' (I actually taught him that phrase a while back.)

So - discipline or not? I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate rudeness but I hate people who won't say no for an answer as well.

If he is old enough to be allowed to refuse food because he doesn't like it, then he is old enough to be taught to do so in a polite fashion.

He said "no thank you" repeatedly. How is that not polite?

My goodness, you are looking st it from an adult perspective, he is still a child and learning. Not used to his repeated no thank you being ignored. That is rude. Well at least granny knows not to to that next time to another child.

I'm really surprised at the comments suggesting that slamming a glass down is acceptable behavior. Not so surprised at the ageist and sexist responses, however.

OP I don't like any kind of rudeness but in this situation I wouldn't punish DS due to the fact that he already said "no thank you" once, he shouldn't have had to repeat himself numerous times, and I would have been a tad bit angry due to the fact that she waved the sandwich in his face, he is a child for goodness sake not an animal.

I hope DS is ok now, and the both of you enjoy the rest of your day

I think the rudest people in this equation are the people who didn't even bother to read the post in its entirety, just rushed to pile on and tell OP how rude her son is...Now, to those in the cheap seats, those who are hard of hearing, and those who are hard of reading, let me lay out the situation as I see it: I will grant that shouting and slamming glasses is not appropriate. But it takes two to tango, and if I'm to agree that OP's DS was in the wrong for shouting and slamming glasses, then I'm going to need you all to agree that this woman was equally in the wrong for not accepting that no means no. And no DOES mean no, whether you are a ten year old boy refusing a sandwich, a 21 year old young adult refusing a date, or a person in their forties refusing a drink (another thread on here recently, IIRC).

I think you're giving all those 'rude people' a pretty good run for their money Faith. It may not have occurred to you, but this is a discussion forum and there are going to be a range of differing opinions. You may not agree with them and I'd defend your right to debate until my fingers bled. However, I think you lose credibility when you accuse everyone who has a different opinion of being unable to rtft. Nor do their opinions cease to matter simply because you've given the benefit of your wisdom to those of us in the cheap seats.

Very few, if any, posters have defended the actions of the pushy grandmother. Yes, she was wrong. She absolutely shouldn't have kept on at him. But to concentrate on her behaviour is to miss the point of the thread, which was whether the reaction of the OP's child required disciplining. I totally agree with you that no means no, irrespective of the circumstances. The difference is that we would expect the 21 year old and the person in their 40's to be able to say no without the need to slam things and shout. Those skills need to be installed at a much earlier age and while I certainly wouldn't expect a ten year old to have mastered the art of dealing with passive aggressive grandmothers intent on forcing food on them, I would expect them to be able to control their temper.

No slamming the glass down is not acceptable, but bet a few 10 year olds would be quite tired with it, and raise their voice and tell the granny "Look I said no thank you, I don't want any"

So as a secondary teacher if I repeatedly ask a child to get on with their work, which they don't want to do, it is reasonable for the child to shout at me and slam something on the desk? I think OP you need to start talking to your child about anger management/context. He behaved badly, and maybe granny did too, but I would not depend on the word of a badly behaved child and it is clear from your post he has a history of anger issues. He needs to learn to control his temper when pushed or you will spend a lot of time dealing with the fallout of his temper.

I would much rather my children were confident enough to be rude to an adult than feel they have to do things they don't want to for the sake of being polite.
It was a high stress situation for a child.

Hard to tell if you weren't actually there.
I would explain that he should have found a more diplomatic way to refuse the unwanted sandwich. At 10, he should understand what is tactful and what isn't, so that's the lesson he needs.
You should tell him they are offended and he should apologise for having offended them (irrespective of whether they are justifiably offended, really).
But to insist that he doesn't want something is still appropriate in situations where he is actually being potentially damaged.
I find it very rude when people try to force food on you, and all that "I've been making them all afternoon" is very irritating and makes me wonder if she didn't bang on at the mother to ring up and demand an apology from a 10 year old. When actually, in their shoes, I would have dealt with it at the time so wouldn't have to escalate to you.

Mabey tell him to write a letter or telephone the mum and grandma apologising for his behaviour, which he should do. And discuss what he should do if he's faced with the same situation. Like take the sandwich put it on your plate and don't eat it. Or raise your voice slightly if you are not being heard or listened to and say "look I don't want to be rude but i did tell you no thank you" I don't want any food please and walk away.

I think punishments should be for deliberately bad behaviour which I don't think this was. I think this was a kid pushed past the boundary he was equipped to deal with. Punishment is not appropriate, teaching him better ways to deal with it are. I think in that scenario I would advice him to appeal to the other adult and say something like "I really don't want any sandwiches, I'm not hungry" and hope they would take the hint and intervene on his behalf.

They were both rude. I can sympathise with your child however, I was a really poor eater as a child and still lose my appetite if I'm nervous etc. I hated friends parents trying to push too much food on me and was actually physically sick once after feeling unable to refuse mac and cheese which was on a huge plate and totally freaked me out! Slamming a glass is a bit much but I would want my children to feel ok with saying a clear and firm no.

Can't believe some people in the thread think shouting and aggression is ok in respect of a sandwich. If Granny had been trying to get him to hold a poisonous snake ok but it was a sandwich....
Shocking attitudes...

Imagine a few years down the line at school and teacher keeps asking him where his missing homework is and he shouts at him/her because he doesn't like being asked the same question and throws a pen at him/her.

If you teach him this reaction is acceptable now, he's going to be an unpleasant teenager in a few years.

I don't think you can judge unless you've witnessed the situation and so wouldn't discipline him. Taken out of context his response sounds rude but you need to see the context to really decide. How hard did he really slam the glass? How loud did he shout back? How many times did the Gran wave the sandwiches at him? How comfortable did he feel in that house with them, was he feeling uncomfortable? Why does a ten year old have to have a better understanding of appropriate behaviour than the adult? I would be pissed off if someone repeatedly waved sandwiches at me that I had declined.

I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching children how to stand up for themselves, they shouldn't always have to humour adults if it makes them uncomfortable. It's like the whole forced cuddles from relative when they clearly don't want to. I expect my kids to be polite and am probably on the stricter side but I also understand that they are children and still learning how to deal with their emotions. I'd have a chat with him about how to respond but wouldn't be telling him off when I don't really know exactly what happened.

I also think your friend has been a bit OTT phoning you about it. Unless he really flew off the handle surely she could have dealt with it. It hardly warrants a "chat". Surely part of having friends round to play is dealing with these situation?

So as a secondary teacher if I repeatedly ask a child to get on with their work, which they don't want to do,

Different context.

So as a secondary teacher if I repeatedly ask a child to get on with their work, which they don't want to do, it is reasonable for the child to shout at me and slam something on the desk?

As a teacher, you'll know that there is a rather large difference between turning down the offer of a sarnie and refusing to do your school work.

Uservery different situation, some people have food issues or get nervous. Being made to take and eat a sandwich that makes him feel sick is not on. At that age I had food issues and would barely eat, to be forced to eat a sandwich in the name of politeness, would have made me sick. Respect goes both ways, the host should also respect the visitor. why did the mum not intervene when the grandma kept offering food.

Your little boy stood up against pressure to do something he didn't want to do.
Sounds like he expressed himself politely (no thank you) but was cornered and the Nan wouldn't take no for an answer (I'd hope that the mum in the situation would have stood up for your little boy - clearly not).
So I wouldn't discipline. Maybe have a conversation about it, but he doesn't need punishing for standing up to himself.
Adult/child respect works both ways
x

But redsrule, the child is supposed to be doing their work. A closer comparison would be you offering the class a sweet as a reward, not accepting that one child says no thanks, repeatedly offering with child continuing to say no thanks, and eventually waving sweet under child's nose insisting they eat it. No they shouldn't shout even then, but they might well if they got flustered as it's not normal behaviour from the adult. Whereas insisting they do their work is normal and to be expected.

Gosh, a lot of people on here a) not reading the OP properly and b) taking a very superficial black and white view.

The boy repeatedly and politely said no thank you when offered the sandwiches. Rather than accepting that the boy was politely declining the food, the granny pushed and pushed and actually started waving food in the boy's face. Now, I don't know about you, but anyone doing that to me would get a very firm response. It is very irritating, frustrating and unpleasant when someone not only won't take no for an answer, but then gets in your face trying to push you into doing what they want - however well intended. If an adult did that to an adult, it would be deemed totally unreasonable (as has been seen on this site many times) - so why is it okay to do it to a child who is then conflicted between being polite and being assertive?

It seems to me that, having his repeated polite responses ignored, the boy has then attempted to be assertive but, being a 10 year old, hasn't quite executed it right, his emotions have got the better of him and it has come off as anger/rudeness rather than firm/polite assertiveness. I know many adults who can't manage that and who go from zero to rude/nuclear in a heartbeat. Was it right for him to slam down the glass and shout? No it wasn't, but one needs to look at the whole picture and the intent behind his actions. It wasn't a tantrum because he didn't like the sandwiches - not even close. It was a boy who had repeatedly tried to politely refuse some food, been ignored over and over, had someone waving said food in his face, tried to be assertive and didn't quite pull it off right. Hardly a crime. He's 10 for crying out loud.

In my opinion, OP, it seems that this presents an opportunity to discuss tricky situations with your DS - how to deal with difficult adults, how to be "politely assertive" in social situations such as being a guest in someone else's home etc... and what options are open to him should he find himself in a similar situation again. He started out right - politely refusing - fair enough. No one is under an obligation to accept food from anyone. He just didn't handle the assertive part right - but it's a learning opportunity. It might be an idea for him to write a letter to the host apologising for his rudeness with perhaps a brief explanation - thus taking responsibility for his error in judgment - that would show maturity on his part, and I would be impressed by that. However, I don't think he needs to be treated like some kind of criminal for what was essentially a 10 year old backed into a corner, trying to be assertive and getting it wrong. No one handles things perfectly at 10 years old - or even much older!

I don't have food issues now and I am a size 16 and now my family are telling me how fat I am and not to eat .

So as a secondary teacher if I repeatedly ask a child to get on with their work, which they don't want to do, it is reasonable for the child to shout at me and slam something on the desk?

I really hope you are lying about being a teacher if you think that is any remote way analogous!

There will, of course, be two sides to this story. What your son calls a 'granny waving sandwiches in his face' might have actually been granny saying,' Are sure, they're yummy and lots of choices' and offering the plate to him more than once. It's difficult for us to know the truth.'

It's not acceptable then to slam down a glass and shout but simply to continue to say politely ,' No thank I don't want anything to eat' with a maybe, 'I have already said that I don't want anything but thank you all the same! Could I leave the table now, please'. He was obviously there having a drink with the family. 'No, I said no', should be reserved for dangerous situations.

I think he will have burnt his bridges about getting another invitation there though as he will have been seen as rude and unpredictable and not a good role model for their child to play with. Best tell him this or his friendship group could become somewhat limited in the future.

I completely agree but it appears the OP, who is proud of her 10yo shouting at a granny, has not taught him about context and, as I said in my first post, a conversation needs to be had about this. I can say this because many parents don't and then defend their DC's rudeness in school as them being assertive.