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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult

986 replies

riverotter · 12/08/2017 12:37

DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

He was at a friend's house last night and I picked him up at just after 8. The mum seemed a bit quiet and this morning she sent a text asking if we could talk so I called her.

Her version is that DS shouted and slammed a glass down on the table and it made everybody feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I asked what brought it on and she said it was because her mum, so his friend's grandma, had offered DS a sandwich!

So I spoke to DS. He started crying Sad and said he did but he didn't really like any of them so kept saying no thank you, no thank you. But apparently the gran kept saying go on, have one, they are nice, I've been making these all afternoon. He said she was waving one in his face when he shouted 'no, I said no.' (I actually taught him that phrase a while back.)

So - discipline or not? I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate rudeness but I hate people who won't say no for an answer as well.

OP posts:
derxa · 13/08/2017 08:16

Lest we forget it was the hostess who complained to the OP not her son.
The shouting and glass slamming must have been pretty spectacular.
Anyway OP. Well done on a good wind up thread.

OliviaStabler · 13/08/2017 08:17

Times have changed. We used to get a lot if this as a kid (being offered food over and over). Always taught it was rude to say no and to take something and nibble on it to diffuse the situation.

Very different to getting into a strangers car etc.

crazykitten20 · 13/08/2017 08:43

@Pengggwn

I agree. It is about balance.

But I assume from what the OP said, that her son felt threatened. Ergo his reaction was proportional.

We can't know for sure, truth be told, and I think the child in question needs some assistance with his reactions- nonetheless, better to have the courage TO react at an early age than no courage to protect oneself.

Gottagetmoving · 13/08/2017 08:45

This has all got massively exaggerated.
OP did not witness it. The other mum could have made the boys reaction sound worse than it was.
The boy could have made the grandmother's offering of the sandwich worse than it was. Who knows?
From this, we have people coming up with potential dangers of child abuse and others implying the child could become an abuser.
Get a fucking grip!
Fussing grandmother...child overreacting...that's about it!
Both were wrong. OP wrong to condone child's slamming drink down.
Hard to believe that these were adults in this situation.
The child must be bloody confused.

faithinthesound · 13/08/2017 08:52

It may not have occurred to you, but this is a discussion forum and there are going to be a range of differing opinions.

Late to the party (that will learn me to sleep).
If you are saying "well, he should have done X" and it STATES IN THE OP that he DID X, then you have not rtft, and no amount of "you're entitled to your opinion" can change that. Because opinions aren't infallible, and an opinion based on an ignored fact is quite likely to be WRONG.

mathanxiety · 13/08/2017 08:59

RiverTam -
This is a child who 'explodes a bit when pushed'. This is not an isolated incident.

There is always a better way of dealing with a situation than shouting and using inanimate objects inappropriately and whatever other ways he 'explodes'.

He needs to be taught to recognise when he is getting angry, and to recognise that behind that there is fear or anxiety or the need to control, frustration about breakdown or ineffectiveness of communication, anxiety/panic - feeling cornered/panic, feeling misunderstood/panic.

He can start with learning to recognise physical sensations of stress as his buttons are pressed, and to breathe deeply and consciously relax tensed muscles. Mentally counting backwards and focusing on the breathing are techniques to defuse his adrenaline flood. Parents could label this 'taking control'.

At home he needs phrases or hand gestures that his family understands to communicate that he recognises he is getting overwhelmed, and he needs a safe/quiet place to go to where he can breathe and relax and try to figure out what just happened and where to go from there. He is not too young to do this.

Away from home - in this instance he needed phrases that he has been coached in, and assurance from his parents that he can turn down food or other pushiness from adults and nobody will really mind as long as he remains cool and calm. He might feel empowered or more confident if were to be equipped with problem solving techniques and effective communication strategies, and if he were to be trained not to see conflict as a situation where he must win or the other person will. In any event, he will feel more confident that situations will not get out of control.

He needs to learn to distinguish when people are not getting at him personally, even though he is the one feeling intensely annoyed. A heads up about the possible motivations of other people when they address him can be delivered by the parents. Something along the lines of, 'The older woman probably does this to everyone, not just you'. He is not too young to understand that pushing food was all about her need to be the provider or to feel that her contribution was not going to go to waste. He needed a way to let her know that he was not going to fill that need.

This is where acknowledging her afternoon's work comes in - 'They look great Mrs X, but I am full. Thank you all the same.' Or, 'Sorry, Mrs X, I am afraid I can't fit one more bite.' Or, 'Thank you so much for your kindness, but I am completely full'. Spoken with a smile. Repeated requests - 'No, really, but thank you'. Then just shake head sadly from then on.

There were two people here who did not know how to solve a problem or defuse the situation. (I accept that the older woman should not have caused the issue in the first place, but that is not a problem anyone here can help with). It's important to teach children that most conflicts or breakdowns in communication are opportunities for problem solving. He solved the communication problem in a way that was certainly effective, but not advisable or useful for future reference. This should be pointed out to him.

The DS should have used the regretful smiles, phrases declining the offer that included appreciation of the effort and finished product, followed by head shaking. He and his parents need to role play and brainstorm, asking for examples from him of 'problem solving' or 'good communication' and chipping in some ideas themselves. There may be more buttons the OP has noticed, and they could rehearse a few of those situations too.

Sometimes a child who is normally quiet and polite (as the DS is) is experiencing feelings of frustration just under the surface that he is not dealing with. Quietness and politeness do not always indicate a well adjusted child. Often a quiet, polite child can experience high levels of anxiety just under the surface.

Empowerment and encouragement to take charge of situations themselves are encessary - parents really should assure children that they do not owe compliance to all adults purely because they are adults. They need to be shown how to dodge the pushy ones (and those who are devious, manipulative or deviant). Training them to be 'good' is not enough. They have to have a sense that 99% of situations are not the end of the world and that they can solve the problems they present.

Social interaction shouldn't be a huge, bewildering mystery. Children need to be taught how to read situations and to deal appropriately with them. They need to be encouraged to dissect situations with their parents - parents need to listen to the children's interpretations and to suggest what might have been going on. This is part of guiding children towards maturity.

mathanxiety · 13/08/2017 09:09

...and if a child is prone to exploding from time to time, it's sometimes a good idea to get him or her involved in martial arts. The advantages martial arts present are focus on the concept of respect, focus on observation of the opponent, opportunity to let off steam in a controlled environment, feeling of mastery as different levels are conquered.

Pengggwn · 13/08/2017 09:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wanderings · 13/08/2017 09:09

I'm glad this thread hasn't been deleted - it's a very important discussion which needs to be had.

Learning to say "no" is a vital life skill; to chuggers, to beggars, to pushy salespeople in banks and shops, to those who ask for sex, to barristers who say "you led him on, didn't you?" There are many threads on MN about a lot of these, which lament that children (especially girls) have been conditioned not to say "no" to anything.

Being able to control one's emotions and reactions, and knowing what is appropriate and when is also vital. If the OP does the right thing and talks sensibly with her son about it, he will have learned something very useful, and something good will have come out of the situation.

If, however, he is punished for "being rude", he will end up very confused, and even more angry and defensive about the incident. I remember feeling confused by the message "say no to strangers" or anyone who is hurting you or doing something to you that you don't like, yet I was supposed to willingly hold out my hand to be smacked when my parents felt like it.

GetAHaircutCarl · 13/08/2017 09:13

wanderings you missed a bit out.

What if he is told by the OP that his behaviour was impressive. That, as some posters are saying, he behaved correctly in his glass slamming and shouting?

What would be the likely consequences?

ElinorRigby · 13/08/2017 09:21

I'm 57 and I am feeling apprehensive about a social situation - a wedding party lasting nearly 48 hours - where I will be with people who are very different from me. I shall try to behave as politely as I can but due to the fact that there are a variety of social rules and there will be quite a lot of people who have idiosyncrasies and distinct expectations and it's all going to go on for a long time and I won't be able to get away, it is entirely possible that somebody will be offended by what i say and do.

So I am not sure that a 10 year old can master the minefield of being the perfect guest when away from his family. No matter how much coaching is done. No matter how many social rules are discussed - there is always going to be a new difficult situation and it's two steps forward and one stops back.

I do find the incident weird. I think it is good to try and encourage children towards trying new foods and to be aware that hosts will have taken trouble to cook for them, so it's good to show polite appreciation. So it wouldn't be good to sit through a meal at a table and refuse course after course. It would be better to make an effort to eat things even if the foods you like most weren't there.

But it makes absolutely no sense to try and force food on a child at picnic and/or buffet when they have already eaten a fair amount of what's on offer. Isn't the whole point of these more informal meals is that you can relax a bit and get to choose what to put on your plate.

Buck3t · 13/08/2017 09:25

FFS the OP has said she was secretly impressed with him standing up for himself, not the way he stood up for himself.

HeteronormativeHaybales · 13/08/2017 09:28

math, your long, detailed post is all very well, and it's absolutely a great idea for the OP to work on these strategies with her ds now. But he's bloody 10 (you only need to go on the retail workers' threads on here to see how many grown adults lose it completely on a seemingly regular basis) and was being pushed probably beyond any pushing he's experienced before. Maybe he actually held out longer before his rather minor explosion than he has done in the past?

OP, I do think it was graceless of the mother to complain to you, really. I don't complain to a child's parents when there's an incident on a playdate and it was six of one and half a dozen of the other, which IMO this incident was, and I wouldn't complain just because one of the participants was an adult. I would probably have quietly and calmly suggeated to the child before he went home 'listen, I know she wouldn't leave you alone, but could you just say a quick sorry for shouting at her?' and I would have had serious words with my mother about her behaviour.

crazykitten20 · 13/08/2017 09:29

@Pengggwn

We can't know.... but I think we've generally established that shouting and slamming a glass over pushy sandwich offerings appears disproportionate for many of us but.... the child felt it was necessary.

The OP is pleased that her child is capable of standing up for himself because she wasn't capable as a child.

I feel that passively accepting that an adult is making us feel uncomfortable and uneasy , is wrong. We shouldn't accept being made to feel bad.

But we do need to be taught how to express our discomfort. We need to learn when to shout, when to kick and fight and when to grit our teeth, keep saying no and get out ASAP.

The child is not wrong imo.

If we want to apportion blame then -

The adults are wrong imo - the granny and the OP.

The granny because she needs to lighten up about her fucking sandwiches and the OP because she hasn't yet gotten round to teaching proportional responses ( and tbf to the OP, we can often be caught on the back foot as parents and we end up teaching retrospectively)

redsquirrel2 · 13/08/2017 09:32

Poor boy. He was backed into a corner with someone harassing him who had ignored his polite response. He has no experience presumably in dealing with a situation like that. He's only 10 and people much older than that can't control their emotions fully. He was honest with you about what had happened which is really important. The gran was rude. YANBU

Butteredparsnip1ps · 13/08/2017 09:39

I'm aware the thread has moved on, but I'm going to guess that the DS broke some other unexplained social code.

Projecting hugely, but DM was a master of this. Food would be put out on the table for people to help themselves to. So far, so normal. Except DM had rules about the order the food should be eaten in. She'd never express these rules, but would be massively PA if anyone broke them. do you usually eat cake first at home

As I say, just a guess. But I'm imagining the DS was supposed to eat sandwiches and not just quiche & cake.

It's another etiquette conundrum that children need to learn...

derxa · 13/08/2017 09:43

10 is quite old enough not to react like this.

GetAHaircutCarl · 13/08/2017 09:44

buck she did not say that.

She said she was 'impressed'.

She also confirmed that he 'explodes' from time to time. Can be 'volatile'.

ZuriWanders · 13/08/2017 09:46

If someone offers you something, and you say no thank you, and they continue to try to push something on you, then they deserve a bit of rudeness back imo.

They are teaching children consent earlier now. I fully agree with it. Children don't have to accept sandwiches or unwanted cuddles etc from anyone, no matter if you are a sweet old lady with precious sandwiches she spent all afternoon making (Guilt-tripping).

RebelRogue · 13/08/2017 09:46

What if he is told by the OP that his behaviour was impressive. That, as some posters are saying, he behaved correctly in his glass slamming and shouting?

I don't think anyone has said that. What has (mostly)been said was that even if his behaviour was understandable,it was not ok and a talk is needed about appropriate responses in such situations.

notevernotnevernotnohow · 13/08/2017 09:47

I'd be a little impressed too. It's very very hard for children to stand up to pushy adults. I never managed it as a child, to my extreme detriment.
I'd be a little impressed by a ten year old who could hold his boundary so well.
I'd talk to him about appropriateness and better ways to manage and explain feelings, and be very strong on the glass thing (though I suspect this has been overblown and he merely put it down a little louder)

Willow2017 · 13/08/2017 09:50

Scenario 1
You are out for a meal with friends.
You have had your starter, main and pudding. You are stuffed. Then your friends partner whome you haven't met before says 'oh there are still some Mann breads left her one. You say no. They offer again. You say no thanks. They persist in offering again and again while you say no. Then they start waving it in front of your face saying go on take it take it. What would you do if eveyo e at the table was looking at you but not intervening? You would feel intimidated and annoyed that he wasnt listening to you and invading your personal space I know I would. How many times do you tell no before telling him to did off before you ram the nann bread where the sun don't shine? You can get up and leave or slap his hand away or tell him where to go because you are both adults.

Now imagine you are s 10yr old boy who apparently lives in a house where he has witnessed his father bully his mum so is aware that adults can get pretty mean if they dont get their own way, in the same circumstance. Surrounded by adults not listening to him knowing it's no point in saying no thanks again as she is just going to keep pestering him. Wondering if she's going to try to force the sandwich down and starting to panic.

What the he'll is a 10yr old supposed to do who doesn't have years of deaing with dickish behaviour to fall back on?

Get a bit of empathy people. A chat about future issues is all that's needed, some coping strategies to manage his anxiety in these situations. He should never feel pressurised to do something he doesn't want to do by any adult but that's what some people seem to think is acceptable.

The kid needs support not punishment.

And the Granny needs to learn when you have finished a meal you don't try and force people to start again!

ZuriWanders · 13/08/2017 09:50

Yes, he shouldn't have slammed a glass down. But there's nothing wrong with raising his voice - grandma obviously didn't understand him saying no the first few times, maybe she needed him to say it a bit louder. I can also understand why he felt frustrated at not being listened to, leading to slamming the glass. Not the most appropriate way to react, but how long is he supposed to sit there and keep saying no?

RebelRogue · 13/08/2017 09:55

Everyone picking on the "he can explode a bit when pushed" thing.
OP said it happened 4 or 5 times so far,and while it would be easy to assume based on this incident,it doesn't necessarily mean that those explosions where violent as well.

Regardless of that,think of the last 10 years of your life... how many times have you "exploded",shouted,swore?

Buck3t · 13/08/2017 09:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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