To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult

[riverotter]

DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

He was at a friend's house last night and I picked him up at just after 8. The mum seemed a bit quiet and this morning she sent a text asking if we could talk so I called her.

Her version is that DS shouted and slammed a glass down on the table and it made everybody feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I asked what brought it on and she said it was because her mum, so his friend's grandma, had offered DS a sandwich!

So I spoke to DS. He started crying and said he did but he didn't really like any of them so kept saying no thank you, no thank you. But apparently the gran kept saying go on, have one, they are nice, I've been making these all afternoon. He said she was waving one in his face when he shouted 'no, I said no.' (I actually taught him that phrase a while back.)

So - discipline or not? I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate rudeness but I hate people who won't say no for an answer as well.

Daftest post yet. Lollol
Offer a sandwich leads to sinister and evil things in the future. Oh dear x 10

Daftest post yet. Lollol
Offer a sandwich = sinister and evil things in the future. Oh dear x 10!!!!!!

We were in Waitrose the other day. The lady filling up the coffee machine said she had to use the milk up as it was going off. The conversation was as follows...

Lady: would your DD like some milk?
Me: No thank you.
Lady: How about your baby, would he have some?
Me: No thank you, he's fine too.
Lady: are you sure? Milk goes out today. Need to use it up.
Me: yes, quite sure, thank you.
Lady: I can pour it into cups for them to take home if they don't want it now?
Me: Honestly, thank you, but we're fine.

I carry on making a coffee.

Lady goes up to DD...

Lady: did you want to have any milk?
Me: I SAID NO THANK YOU!

She looked at me in disgust, and stormed off.

Was I rude? How many more polite times must I refuse before she would get it?

She wouldn't ever have got it. Because I was supposed to give in on one of her many offerings. I was meant to just accept it.

Did you slam a glass down on the table? If not, why not?

Point proven, I feel.

Golly, some of the reactions. Too much filling of the gaps of what we know happened.

Manners is everything So is ready the opening post properly, at the very least! He said no thank you repeatedly.

All those on here saying he should have said this, that and the other...he repeatedly said "no, thank you" REPEATEDLY. How many times do we have to say no thank you in order to be heard, as adults? Now, do children need to multiple that by a thousand so as not to be rude to adults?

How about if he kept asking the mum/gran for a biscuit? How many times could they be expected to say no to him? How many times of him asking would be considered OK?

If a person was repeatedly asking me if I wanted food, and I repeatedly said "no, thank you" them pushing me constantly and waving food in my face would be considered harassment. Yet for a kid, it's considered anything but.

Why are we constantly expecting more of kids than we do of adults? I hate this attitude that kids need to take everything that is doled out to them by adults around them. Adults are allowed to push and push and push, to the point of making a kid feeling uncomfortable enough that hey shout. If you push someone that far, you have pushed too much.

*reading, not ready

But yes, he must show respect to his elders at all time, even if they're not respecting him and say yes to everything even if he doesn't want to do something. That's a good lesson to teach kids. It is NOT a good lesson at all. Without going into to much, saying yes to everything, even stuff they don't want, makes a huge muddy puddle out of consent issues. Kids are allowed and should be encouraged to say no when they want.

And respect? My asd child has been pushed to her limits too much while being forced into "respecting" her elders, mostly her grandparents. They now have to earn her respect & time.

Whaf I alwags find truly fascinating in threads like this is some people's inability go extrapolate out.

"Its only a sandwich, hardly child abuse!" completely misses the point that it is not about what's being offered, if is about training the child to accept that the Adult is Always Right and the child must Always Do Whaf the Adult Wants. This sets a scenario for later abuse by and abuser, because the training is in place.

^^ This

Melj, the OP has stated that DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

10 year olds do not normally explode if pushed, certainly not in other people's houses.

Most children of 7/8 have learned to rein it in, especially when they are out of their own homes or dealing with people they do not know well.

Pre pubescent children are not still learning to control their emotions in other people's houses. They are well past the age of public outbursts, or they should be.

Showing a child no respect will not lead to the aforementioned child being respectful.
It should not lead to an angry display or force of any kind. Or even rudeness. A child can be taught phrases that are assertive without being rude, and can be taught to recognise signs that his frustration and/or anxiety levels are rising.

There was no physical force used by the grandmother. There was no goading by anyone else as far as the OP knows. It was a case of a very persistent older woman pushing sandwiches, and maybe she was used to seeing people caving and eating food she prepared after she moaned about slaving in the kitchen all day, but two wrongs do not mean the child is exonerated here.

There is nothing wrong with keeping on saying, 'No thank you,' or using a more assertive and firm phrase like, 'I appreciate your effort and they look lovely, but I am full,' or, 'I can't fit one more bite, but thank you,' and talking to your parents about the incident when you get home if it really bothered you. Even the most persistent of older women will get the message if you keep on politely saying 'No' or words to that effect.

Assertiveness training and strong encouragement not to lose your rag takes a parent.

But yes, he must show respect to his elders at all time, even if they're not respecting him and say yes to everything even if he doesn't want to do something. That's a good lesson to teach kids.

People who think like this scare me. Really scare me. I imagine that their up bringing must have gone along the same lines mine did.

Thankfully I have now taught myself to think differently to the way I was brought up and to bring my daughter up to understand that respect isn't given to anyone if that person is rude, unkind, frightening or controlling. No matter WHO they are.

Look - the OPs child handled the situation badly. I think most of us agree on that. The OP needs to teach him polite strategies for dealing with over bearing and bossy people who are not threatening his physical safety.

But until he knows these strategies I do not suggest he lies down and allows pushy people to walk all over him. I do not think he should allow anyone to treat him disrespectfully. Ever.

Why are we constantly expecting more of kids than we do of adults?

Because we can. In that we can make them do what we want because they're smaller and have so little power in every area of their own lives. Children have no agency or power generally speaking and we can be very controlling over them in a way we never can be over adults. They're ours to mould. I think some parents/people get thoroughly carried away with that and then perceive a child that resists them as one that must be pushed forcefully back into line at all costs. Some of the attitudes on here really reflect this idea that we own our kids. These are the parents that will cope really badly when your children hit rebellious teen stage and will overreact and respond damagingly to perfectly normal behaviour from their older child. Even worse than that though are the children who never learn to respond normally or think for themselves because their parents have been so totalling controlling and crushing over their children's normal reactions and responses - that was me. It's only now in my forties that I am shaking off my parents excessively dictatorial, petty and aggressive parenting style. It took having my own kids and seeing how far my parents would go in trying to force them to submit to make me realise. I recognise their attitudes in many posters on here and I don't think you realise how much damage you're doing to your kids, to their future mental health and your future relationship with them.

And you don't worry that, given his youth and inexperience, he is being taught to overreact to situations that don't require a rude or aggressive response, or that people will view him as arrogant and disrespectful because he reacts with such a strong sense that no-one should 'disrespect' him, when actually they aren't doing so in any deliberate or unkind way?

I think that's possible, yes. All that^ is possible. Of course it is.

But I think it's crucial that we teach our kids to be independent thinkers and not to accept and respect someone 'just because' society says kids should be a certain way.^

And within that we teach the difference between someone who is a nuisance and needs a deep breath , a sigh , maybe and tolerance -- and someone who is actually crossing the line, crossing our personal boundaries and is bloody rude, controlling, potentially dangerous.

We are teaching our children to look after themselves and it's a delicate lesson. But if we don't teach them, then they will be too scared to say no to the pervert, to say no to their partner who walks all over them, to say no to their boss who takes advantage.

Bringing up children to be assertive, self respecting and balanced is fucking difficult.

But it's essential imo,

He should show respect for himself at all times.

To do this, he should be shown how to be assertive. Assertiveness does not involve shouting at people or slamming glasses on tables.

nina no, this 'lady' (nothing ladylike about her, as far as I can tell) wasn't being nice. Unless you think nice is to repeatedly ignore a polite 'no'. Do you? Is that what you're teaching your children, to ignore 'no' and pile on the pressure? Or to give in and do what you've repeatedly said you don't want to? You think either of those things are good? Nice?

Or have you simply failed to read the OP properly?

The OP's son certainly lost his temper and needs to learn other methods. But he is 10 and was being badgered by an adult. An adult who does not have the excuse or reason of being 10 for behaving in such a manner to a child. Who doesn't have any excuse, other than the excuses the adults-are-always-right crowd keep making.

math so what should a child who has been polite and repeatedly said no and is presumably starting to feel stressed and anxious but is still being badgered by an adult actually do? Let's face it, whatever this child (I'm going to keep repeating this because some people seem to think he should know how to behave like an adult who's had many years experience of social interactions) chose to do would have pissed off at least one adult and he would have been in trouble with someone, wouldn't he? Shouted? Rude. Walked out? Rude. Continued to say no? Rude. Let's face it, too many people think that the only thing this child could have done is now to the pressure this adult was piling on him and done what she was forcing him to do. I fail to see how anyone could describe that end result as good or polite but it looks like a lot of people would. I find that worrying.

Bow to

I think this thread very much reflect our current society and the divide between children who are taught good manners from an early age because their parents think that good manners will take them further in life, and those parents who think that teaching children that their needs should come first because this will take them further in life.

I personally believe that this divide is what is starting to be seen more and more in adults, those who cut queues because they deserve to be served quicker, those who pretend they can't see the pregnant lady standing in front of them in the bus because why should they get up when they too are tired, those who have parties let at night without a care for their neighbours because their entitled to have fun and if others go to bed early, it's their problem.

It starts like that, thinking that it is ok to be respond with temper because someone dared to push their button a bit, even though it wasn't their intention.

I don't think YABU to not punish him. Just go through more appropriate reactions for future but don't punish him. Your son is learning to he assertive - I don't think that is a bad thing and certainly don't see why 'being polite' is SO much more important to people than standing up for yourself!! I think it's a British thing and probably why we have a nation of people who can't say no or defend themselves.

I'm in my early 30s and still haven't learned to stand up for myself. It's gotten me in to all sorts of bother up until this point... including having society attacks at 26 weeks pregnant because I've had mountains of work dumped on me during holiday season and have been too polite yo say no!
But never mind... at least my manners are impeccable

I agree that maybe he shouldnt have shouted or slammed anything but he was obviously upset by the situation and he reacted to that. I agree to maybe explaining to him that he wasnt wrong in making his feelings clear, just to communicate it differently in future. Certainly don't teach him that good manners is THE most important thing... more important than sticking up for yourself... lest he ends up like a door mat like I did

FFS anxiety attacks not social attacks!!

Looking on the bright side, I bet Granny's learned not to say "gwan gwan" quite so vociferously.