To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult

[riverotter]

DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

He was at a friend's house last night and I picked him up at just after 8. The mum seemed a bit quiet and this morning she sent a text asking if we could talk so I called her.

Her version is that DS shouted and slammed a glass down on the table and it made everybody feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I asked what brought it on and she said it was because her mum, so his friend's grandma, had offered DS a sandwich!

So I spoke to DS. He started crying and said he did but he didn't really like any of them so kept saying no thank you, no thank you. But apparently the gran kept saying go on, have one, they are nice, I've been making these all afternoon. He said she was waving one in his face when he shouted 'no, I said no.' (I actually taught him that phrase a while back.)

So - discipline or not? I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate rudeness but I hate people who won't say no for an answer as well.

Yeah kiwi so so awful and rude, offering a sandwich, more than once! What a complete bitch!

This thread really has bought all the fruit loops out of the woodwork.

Actually plenty of people have said he shouldn't have said no.

Fair enough basil it just seems like a worrying number of posters seem to be saying his response was appropriate.

FFS - a grown woman was trying to force a 10yo CHILD into something they didn't want to do.
He clearly felt under pressure as he burst into tears today when it was mentioned.

IME children who've behaved inappropriately and have done it with intent become very defensive when they think they're about to be held accountable for their behaviour.

Ok, slamming a glass isn't what we'd encourage our children to do.
But neither would I encourage my child into being forced to do something just because is an adult saying it.

I had a few times I remember clearly as a child (I'm now late 30's) because its times I felt pressurised and uncomfortable and it doesn't always leave you. Times where I've gagged over food because I should just 'try a little bit'. The time I swam in a freezing cold pool because I should 'lighten up and join in and stop ruining it for everyone else' (I was sat reading and not even mentioning not going in the pool but apparently me laying there made others assume I'm being stroppy and miserable )

Ok, tell the child a better way to deal with that situation. But don't teach them they should do something to their body they don't want to just because an adult insists.

I'm not sure most people believe his response was appropriate, just understandable from a 10 year old.

Obviously it's inappropriate, but that is part and parcel of being a child - you respond inappropriately to stuff, you find out that's inappropriate and you adjust your response next time.

Kids make mistakes and then they learn from them. Nearly everyone on this thread has said the glass and shouting are a no-no, but the emphasis they're giving is slightly different from merely "therefore punish him."

No one is saying he should have eaten the sandwich.

I don't think that getting children to apologise for things when they are not wholly in the wrong is a good idea.

As a child my violin teacher - who came round to my house - was marking my music theory homework, and while she was doing that I picked up the book I had been reading before she came.

The teacher thought it was inappropriate for me to read during the lesson, though she hadn't set me any task to do and told me not to do this. She then told my mother after the lesson had ended, saying 'I had to be a bit cross...'

My mother then told my father who had got back from work late. I was got out of bed, made to sit at the kitchen table and not allowed back to bed until I had copied out a letter to her saying, 'Dear Mrs X, I am very sorry that I was so naughty.'

It damaged my relationship with all three of them.

Actually people did say that, with reference to fussy eaters.

And some people said he should have taken the sandwich and then just taken a bite out of it.

But that taking the sandwich is the first boundary gone. Then the grandma could have launched into "well you've taken it now, why don't you eat it". So then maybe he'd been obliged to take a bite. Another boundary gone. Then it would be "finish it up, now, nag nag nag."

I was sexually assaulted when I was that age. I let it happen because I'd been taught that adults are right and that I didn't have any right to tell them no. I'd rather a thousand grannies were pissed off by children rejecting their unwanted sarnies over-forcefully than 10 go through what I did

My dad does this

DF. I'm having X can the kids have some
ME. No thank you they have their tea soon
DF one won't hurt don't be a meanie
ME. No thank you we have to go now
DF take one home with you
ME .no thank you. Kids get your shoes on please
DF. They are delicious we got them from Aldi the Germans don't buy rubbish.
KIDS. She's already said no why do you keep asking.
DF. You make things so difficult Giles such a big deal about everything.
ME. Eye roll. I just said no thank you you are the one going on about it...

The ds lasted longer than I would have done tbh

I don't think it's 'understandable' behaviour from a 10 yr old. I have had 3 10 year olds, and I was one myself, and none of us would have responded like that.

There's being hospitable and nice and there's guilt tripping your guests into fulfilling your will...

After the third no thank you it stops being about being nice...

I disagree that it's not understandable.

I don't approve of it and I don't think the OP should tell her DS it's OK.

But it's perfectly easy to understand why a trapped 10 year old who had used up all his polite tactics, moved onto the impolite ones.

I don't see the difficulty in understanding it.

Understanding isn't approval.

Why do people, adults, seem to have difficulty respecting a child's voice, or the decisions they make.

Take the sandwich out of the equation.
Lets break this down.
The child said no.
The adult kept pushing.
The child stood up for themselves.
But somehow the child is in the wrong.

Ok lets try again replace "Child" with "Adult"
Adult 1 politely said no, repeatedly
Adult 2 kept pushing, again and again.
Adult 1 stood up for themselves
Is Adult 1 in the wrong?

I know that personally, any of my children are allowed to say no, and expect to be respected and if they reacted this way, I would get the full story and of it was a case of them being pushed into something against their will, I would 100% back them up.

No one should be forced to do anything against their will. Also, adults can rationalise things and control their emotions, children literally can't. They don't have the brain capacity or experience to do so. Give the kid a break.

Agree Basil

I am not impressed he was rude. I am impressed he stood his ground.

Sometimes I think DS is too much like me. Then this happens and I know he isn't.

I was sexually assaulted when I was that age. I let it happen because I'd been taught that adults are right and that I didn't have any right to tell them no.

NO NO NO NO.

That is not why you were abused.
You were abused because a bigfer stronger adult forced themselves on you. Even if you had have said no it would not have stolped it!!

I am getting really upset and angry with the victim blaming on this thread.
No child EVER is at fault for abuse because they were too polite to stop it. Thats fucking bull shit.

A child rudely refusing a sandwich is in now way like sex abuse.

The op has said in her first line that he will 'explode a bit if pushed'. That is not a desirable trait in a 10 year old. 3 year old, maybe. 10? No.

No one is saying he should have eaten the sandwich. 

Actually quite a few people said that. Because it's polite and does no harm.
And even if it's not the case here,sometimes even a sandwich or a slice of cake can cause harm.
Like when my friend's 7yo dd(SEN) was pushed and pushed eating a cake with cinnamon. She's allergic to cinnamon ,but some grownup decided that "no thank you" and "I can't have that" from a child is not enough reason for them not to eat something.

cosmic very well put.

Sorry for the typos but I am fucking livid.

I wouldn't punish him as he is clearly feeling the effects of his loss of control.

No doubt I'll get flamed for asking this, but I don't care - I have self-diagnosed as having mild ASD. My DS has a professional diagnosis of ASD. IME ASD people often/usually have a very strong sense of justice and can have very intense feelings when they perceive an injustice. Eg DS used to get very annoyed by being pressured to join a group that was supposed to be voluntary. He knew he would have been helping the group as he was the only one who played his particular instrument but he was so annoyed at being pressured into it that he vowed to be uncooperative. The leader in question accused him of being arrogant - which he absolutely isn't. Your story reminded me of this. DS once overturned a chair in the classroom when he was slightly younger than your DS.

In your situation I would explain at great length that some people take enormous pride in overfeeding people. We all have our foibles and this is his friend's gran's one. In this situation, even though he was completely within his rights to not take a sandwich he could have taken one and just not eaten it,or had one bite. If pressed even further he could 'apologise' for being too full for having a sandwich and say how delicious they look. This is a justice versus peace scenario.

Do you think it was expected that sandwiches were to form the bulk of what everyone ate? Could he have had more than his fair share of the quiche and couscous or something?

I know a few Grandmothers who have, IMO, funny ideas about children and food. I battle constantly with MIL about her forcing food on my DCs and holding dessert over their heads if they don't eat every scrap of whatever stodge she has cooked up. So, I can EXACTLY picture the scene.

You need to talk to your DS about his temper, and perhaps about finding more polite ways to get out of such a situation, but it is fucking difficult to get away from a persistent old woman, especially one who has martyred herself "making sandwiches all afternoon" 🙄

Ffs we have all have dealt with situations where we are not being listened to and being offered a sandwich repeatedly is a mild annoyance nothing more

It's does not equate to when a child or adult is being emotionally or physically harmed

You need to teach you child how to control his temper not be proud of his ridiculously over the top response

She wasn't intentionally hurting or annoying your son he will be dealing with situations like this all his life and just had to learn how to be deal with being irritated by them

Oh no, Cosmic. Don't you fucking dare accuse me of victim blaming. I was abuse because a man was a totally abusive paedo. But I was in a public place and I could have shouted 'No!' and he would most likely have stopped. But I didn't. Because, like a lot of children and like a lot of women, I had internalised being nice to adults and particularly men.

This boy wasn't rude. He was polite. He said he didn't want the sandwich nicely. Several times. And the adult ignored him. And you think that's absolutely fine for her to do because it's a sandwich. It really isn't.