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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult

986 replies

riverotter · 12/08/2017 12:37

DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

He was at a friend's house last night and I picked him up at just after 8. The mum seemed a bit quiet and this morning she sent a text asking if we could talk so I called her.

Her version is that DS shouted and slammed a glass down on the table and it made everybody feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I asked what brought it on and she said it was because her mum, so his friend's grandma, had offered DS a sandwich!

So I spoke to DS. He started crying Sad and said he did but he didn't really like any of them so kept saying no thank you, no thank you. But apparently the gran kept saying go on, have one, they are nice, I've been making these all afternoon. He said she was waving one in his face when he shouted 'no, I said no.' (I actually taught him that phrase a while back.)

So - discipline or not? I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate rudeness but I hate people who won't say no for an answer as well.

OP posts:
LouHotel · 12/08/2017 15:36

Im interested in mothers of daughters in this thread of how you would tell your daughter to react in a similar situation but change grandmother to a some man in a bar and sandwich to another drink?

Learned behaviour begins somewhere.

Happytobefree17 · 12/08/2017 15:36

My DS has worked in prisons with extremely violent men - it is way way more complex than you suggest. For the start there is almost always a background of violence and abuse of some sort. The parenting or lack of it many of them have received is frighteningly awful. To suggest a little boy who made a mistake and yes was rude and lost his temper, will grow up to be a violent man is ridiculously massive leap based on one incident and unkind to the OP, who sounds like a caring Mum, and her DS.

Unfortunately, the OP has previously posted about her DH who does sound like an aggressive abuser. Sad

IdoHaveAName · 12/08/2017 15:37

Armadillo - somebody rears them. There's enough of them being written about on here. But nobody ever admits to rearing them.

This mother is not going to discipline her son for being violent and aggressive to an old lady. In my book, that's a good step on the road to becoming a violent and aggressive man.

Cherrytart6 · 12/08/2017 15:38

He souls have just quietly but calmly repeated 'no thankyou' like a broken record. Absolutely no need to slam glasses or shout rudely 'I said no'

AskBasil · 12/08/2017 15:38

"If the child had taken a bite and left it (which most do anyway as they dont like crusts) there would have been no anger, no more encouraging granny and no upset friend."

How d'you know that? The granny would have told him to eat it all up, so there might have been more anger etc.

And why is it more important to not upset friend and granny, than it is to teach children to assert boundaries?

The way he did it, was unacceptable, I think most people agree on that. But to argue that he shouldn't have asserted any boundaries at all, that he doesn't have the right to have any, that granny's urge to force-feed must take priority - really?

(This scenario is becoming more like an updated Roald Dahl story in my mind, with a granny who ties kids up and force-feeds them sandwiches and other kids who glass the hostess and then get turned into mice. )

VestalVirgin · 12/08/2017 15:39

the lady in question was being kind enough to cook for him and considerate enough to try to make sure he is fed.

It is not considerate to force someone to eat a sandwich just because you made it and don't want it to go to waste. Understandable, yes, but certainly not considerate.

Pengggwn · 12/08/2017 15:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cherrytart6 · 12/08/2017 15:39

I think you need to teach him how to politely and calmly say no thankyou and how to stay it repeatedly.

Pengggwn · 12/08/2017 15:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

melj1213 · 12/08/2017 15:41

Because being asked repeatedly whether you want something is a very minor inconvenience or irritation, more than compensated for by the fact that the lady in question was being kind enough to cook for him and considerate enough to try to make sure he is fed. She went slightly overboard but she wasn't unkind or rude to him. His reaction was ridiculous.

Sorry but that's bullshit.

You don't get to badger a child (especially in front of other people who are all sat there watching this child be asked repeatedly) and then complain they are rude for getting frustrated and, being a child, not having the adult nuance to control that enough to be polite but firm.,

The Granny wasn't "kind enough to cook for him" she had made food for the people present, but that doesn't obligate anyone to eat any of it. If she was considerate of the child's needs, she would have accepted that he needed to be left alone after saying "No thank you."

I disagree that she wasn't rude - constantly asking anyone the same question, when they have repeatedly and consistently given you the same answer is rude as it shows you are not interested in their answer but in what you want to hear.

Also you didn't answer my questions, so I'll pose them again:

How many times should someone have to repeat "No, thank you" before it becomes unreasonable to ask again? 10? 20? 50? 100?

What age is the cut off point between having to say "No thank you" ad nauseum until the other person stops asking and being allowed to say "I have said no. Please do not ask again" (or words to that effect) after a few rounds of questioning? 10? 13? 16? 18?

BlurryFace · 12/08/2017 15:42

Can't believe people saying a 10 year old blowing his top at some rather irritating behaviour is destined to be a wife beater or something, Christ alive.

I would just say that the grans behaviour was wrong and annoying but two wrongs don't make a right and he should bite his tongue next time. It is annoying when people won't just believe you don't need anything and let you be, my gran always did this when I visited her.

Gottagetmoving · 12/08/2017 15:42

I am shocked at posters condemning a 10 year old to being an abusive adult
I would be more shocked that someone can't see the link between a 10 year old being allowed to have inappropriate angry outbursts and becoming an abusive adult.

CandleWithHair · 12/08/2017 15:43

Poor kid!

OP Your DS WNBU to attempt to assert himself in the face of being badgered into doing something he did not want to do, but the method used relative to the situation was unreasonable, and rude.

As the one who taught him this, it's on you to fix it. It's not your sons fault he's been taught an inappropriate response.
In that regard, while he was not in the wrong to want the granny to leave him alone you SHOULD arrange some sort of apology between DS and friend's family, otherwise you risk him losing the friend.

Hopefully you can figure out with DS some additional, better coping strategies for non-threatening situations where he needs to say 'no' firmly, but politely.

Original poster
riverotter · 12/08/2017 15:43

peng I am here because I want to deal with it.

Like many people I was raised to be polite. It was so ingrained in me that i let adults feel me up, hurt me and so on because it had been drummed into me never to be rude.

DS is an intriguing character. He is intelligent and thoughtful but also stubbon and intense at times.

Like all.parents I want to steer his qualities for good.

OP posts:
TmiTuesdays · 12/08/2017 15:44

This may not be the ideal way to respond but there are plenty of adults in this situation who would be frustrated to the point of snapping (I would be one of them; DGM is one of the Mrs Doyle types and honestly sometimes you have to raise your voice to get the message across that NO, I REALLY DON'T WANT IT!) I don't think you need to take this too seriously; he clearly knows it wasn't the best way to behave but had a momentary lapse (no thank you, no really, no thank you is perfectly polite and should be more than enough. To nag and nag after that is going beyond the realms of good hospitality and into harrassment)

KurriKurri · 12/08/2017 15:45

Unfortunately, the OP has previously posted about her DH who does sound like an aggressive abuser.

I'm really sorry to hear that OP, and I think that coming on here and asking for clarity and opinions from other parents is a great way to go, it's very hard to know what is or isn't 'normal' for want of a better word when you have lived with or are living with someone who is far from normal in their behaviour.

The point I made about violent prisoners is that violent men usually have violent backgrounds. That's not the same as saying all people with violent or abusive backgrounds will grown up to be violent - that is very far from the being the case.

Kleinzeit · 12/08/2017 15:46

talk to him about older women whose only way to get some ego boost is other people liking the food they made

That's a funny kind of empathy. Maybe granny had about a million other ways to get an ego boost but spent the afternoon making sandwiches instead.... we'll never know. Showing appreciation when someone makes an effort isn't only for older women Grin

Willow2017 · 12/08/2017 15:47

Pengggwn

The boy already had had a lot to eat he didn't want any more. Nobody has the right to force feed anyone never mind try to force a child

Refusing food politely seversl times when you are full isn't being rude or inconsiderate. Why should the child have to feel overstuffed to please the Granny and spoil his nice meal?

He reacted out of frustration as he was being bullied and his friends mum didn't have the sense to tell her mum to leave him alone. When you are 10 and feel cornered and that nobody us listening to you it's very hard to stay calm and many adults would have been pissef off too.

With a few more strategies to help him deal with this type of thing he will be fine. He has a lot of growing up to do yet. I know a lot of adults who have never grown up but it wasn't caused by refusing a sandwich!

Gottagetmoving · 12/08/2017 15:47

This may not be the ideal way to respond but there are plenty of adults in this situation who would be frustrated to the point of snapping (I would be one of them

I don't doubt there are plenty of adults who would snap in that situation...and they would be wrong. It's even worse than a child doing so.
As an adult you should be able to handle it in a better way.

mctat · 12/08/2017 15:47

'We need to get children to check in to that uncomfortable feeling in their bodies when they're being asked to do things they don't want to.'

I agree. It's just not that bad, really. Ok he got it a bit wrong this time. He's 10, he's still learning how to be. He obviously already feels bad, it's clear he understands.

'If he'd pulled that kind of stunt in my house, I'd have called you immediately to come and get him, and he'd never be invited to my home/party/event again.'

Some of the responses on here are just so OTT. Some posters really sound like they actively dislike children. Absolutely obsessive about them never making any mistakes and can't wait to 'punish' Confused

Discipline means teaching. Just teach him some other ways he could have dealt with this scenario more appropriately, and how they differ to those where the phrase you taught him WOULD be appropriate. I think perhaps you did make a mistake by not making that clearer sooner at his age, but hey it happens. And discuss ways to deal with things rather than exploding. Check in on all this again next time he's going somewhere similar.

Beyond that, the natural consequences are enough. He's ended up with an awkward situation to deal with, had to explain to his mum, probably won't get invited back and may have damaged the friendship. Adding some arbitrary unrelated punishment is just so unnecessary.

SecondBreakfast · 12/08/2017 15:48

Baffled that you would be proud of teaching him to say "No, I said no!". That sounds rude and abrupt even without a glass slam.

What's wrong with "No, really, I don't want any, but thanks for asking."?

AlexanderHamilton · 12/08/2017 15:49

As an adult if someone had repeatedly ignored my no thank you's & then proceeded to wave an item of food in my face that I didn't want I think I would have ended up losing my cool & that's me as an adult with over 40 years of life experience behind me. (& years of my dad trying to push food & drink onto me that I don't want) I've had to tell dd that it is ok for her to be assertive when grandparents are trying to make her eat stuff she doesn't want (usually food perceived as a treat).

As a 10 year old child it's hardly surprising he reacted the way he did.

So no, I would not discipline him.

Happytobefree17 · 12/08/2017 15:50

Another great post Kurri!

AwaywiththePixies27 · 12/08/2017 15:50

This reply has been deleted

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VestalVirgin · 12/08/2017 15:50

Im interested in mothers of daughters in this thread of how you would tell your daughter to react in a similar situation but change grandmother to a some man in a bar and sandwich to another drink?

Yeah, I thought of that, too.

Now, perhaps all those people who condemn OP for teaching her son he's allowed to say no in a rude way when a polite no isn't respected would teach daughters something different, but I doubt it .

Children cannot be expected to differentiate between all kinds of social situations.

Better teach them they are allowed to say no, always.

With a boy, teach him to leave when he feels cornered.
Some people will think that the height of rudeness, and I actually heard of people who consider it "aggressive" if someone just gets up and leaves the room, but they don't matter.

Women who'll feel threatened if a man who is much larger than them slams things and shouts at them, do matter.