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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what has gone wrong in the UK

551 replies

Mumof56 · 10/08/2017 01:29

I'm talking about the latest sex grooming case in Newcastle. It's the seventh large scale sex gang scandal to hit the UK after cases from towns including Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford and Bristol

I have seen nothing on mumsnet about this (although maybe I've missed it). This is shocking and outrageous. How has this been allowed to happen in so many areas? What is the solution?

This is "rape culture". Where are the (peaceful) protests and the show of support for these girls?

OP posts:
Winebomb · 11/08/2017 23:39

And yes I have rung the police on many occasions. I find them overwhelmed by the issues going on, there needs to be a collective independent study on the issues, to put it aside once and for all.

I would like the imans of the country to period this as well as the police and social services

Winebomb · 11/08/2017 23:42

Period= promote (stupid predictive text!)

Winebomb · 12/08/2017 00:12

In fact there was a collective independent study, a lot of posters are saying education is key, what Boit the Trojan horse enquiry..

Abbylee · 12/08/2017 06:15

Because it has happened for centuries, its not news? Then, logically consistent with this thinking, let's stop medical research and other technology.

Concentrating on abusers is not the answer although they should be punished, teaching young people how to spot abusers and giving them support to earn money and selfesteem will have more import.
Abusive people are opportunistic and bullying cowards. Blaming the victims is virtually the same as condoning the violence, as wicked as the perpetrators.

Maireadplastic · 12/08/2017 07:20

I'm afraid 'send them back where they came from' won't work- the men in this Newcastle case are British born.
Blaming 'liberal Left' won't work either- this sort of sexual grooming (and school, church, Jimmy Saville, football clubs) has occurred during Conservative parliaments and in right-wing establishments as well as left.

Scarriff · 12/08/2017 07:34

I think the issue here is that as soon as you start describing the victimisation of young girls as a general thing (all men, Thailand norms) it gets too big and our minds cant deal. Stick to specifics. Grooming gangs in Rotherham, Care homes in Wales and focus on those. Most often the abuse has been going on for so long. they think its normal. If the gang is from one culture and the victims from.another its even more likely that everyone has accepted abuse as normal. Shocking and of education has to be part of àny response. The occasional hanging from a lamppost might also be considered.

woodhill · 12/08/2017 09:19

Yes good point tea. I didn't think of that. It would probably be sibling's fault wouldn't it, not the manConfused

Puzzledandpissedoff · 12/08/2017 13:07

I'm afraid 'send them back where they came from' won't work- the men in this Newcastle case are British born

To be fair, the poster who mentioned this made it clear that she was referring to those who don't have British citizenship ...

MumNeedsTea · 12/08/2017 14:07

Maireadplastic the fact that some of these men are British born is what I find shocking! How can you grow up in this country and have such horrible views about women. We have this debate at home multiple times and DH always says that that's how these people are.. They don't feel a need to integrate or move away from their local communities. And I really don't know the answer to how to get them to integrate.. May a research into it is the need of the hour.

All I know is that you wouldn't go to a conservative middle eastern country and walk the streets in revealing clothes. You will be asked to cover up to respect the culture and live by their rules. The same should be the case for immigrants living here.. Accepting equality for all should be a non negotiable rule if anyone wants to live here

Atenco · 12/08/2017 14:56

How can you grow up in this country and have such horrible views about women

How can you grow up in the UK and believe that only foreigners are misogynists and rapists? It has been pretty well established further up in the thread that this conduct isn't exclusive to foreigners, but keep on living in your little Englander bubble.

Maireadplastic · 12/08/2017 15:05

I wonder if people intergrate better in London? I don't know the answer.

Increasinglymiddleaged · 12/08/2017 15:13

I haven't rtft so apologies if this has been said before.

I don't think it's about what is wrong in the UK it is evidence for me that we are going in the right direction. We think it is wrong now as a country that young girls are taken advantage of, regardless of their background or whether they have engaged in risky behaviour.

I taught in a city up to 2007, none of this came as a surprise tbh. Misogynistic attitudes prevailed towards girls in care etc, things that happened were seen as their fault. Well thankfully that is changing, but it is a journey. Let's not forget that in Victorian times any rape was the fault of the woman for tempting the man.

Males have always been sexually violent and abusive to women, it's just that now we are tackling it.

UnFuckingAcceptable · 12/08/2017 15:13

Exactly atenco as if it isn't depressing enough to live with the denial that sexism is rife. As if it isn't bad enough that women get the blame for the abuse that they suffer.
We apparently don't have a problem with misogyny in this country.
Nor racism.
Apparently.Hmm

UnFuckingAcceptable · 12/08/2017 15:16

Increasinglymiddleaged
In Victorian times??
Still happens!!
Right now.
Read the comments in any news report on rape.
Read the comments made about Ched Evans case.
Nothing has changed.
We haven't moved on.
nothing will ever change, it's too embedded. Depressing.

Increasinglymiddleaged · 12/08/2017 15:18

We need to move on further agreed. But legally men used to be able to rape women and beat their wives. Whatever that revolting Ched Evans managed to wriggle his way out of - the law is clear men are not allowed to rape women.

Abranamechangus · 12/08/2017 15:25

I've nc for this to avoid outing.

There is a massive problem with the way women and girls of all colours and creeds are perceived with a certain segment of the South East Asian Muslim male community. This section is usually made up of men from a family background in very rural areas of Pakistan and Bangladesh whose attitudes are culturally formed, rather than religious.

In these grooming cases, we are seeing the outcome of these twisted perspectives applied to white girls and women. There have also been cases where Sikh and Hindu girls have been subject to grooming and sexual assault by this segment as well.

But what is not being exposed, and is unlikely to be so, is the perspectives and attitudes by this section of the community to South East Asian Muslim women themselves.

For example, I have a close relative who is a doctor in a hospital GUM clinic in an area with a large South East Asian Muslim community from very rural areas back home. Every Friday, it is the same: her clinic is full of married South East Asian Muslim woman, who often have very little English and no economic power whatsoever, who have contracted STIs from their husbands. They come on a Friday because their husbands are at prayers, and it is the only time they can secretly leave the house to seek treatment for very painful GUM conditions.

Some of these women are discarded first, second or third "wives", who live as single mothers under British law, and are essentially treated as concubines with the state picking up the tab. Anyone who knows anything about Islam knows such scenarios are against all schools of shariah jurisprudence as regards polygamy.

Almost all these discarded women are illiterate in English, utterly socially isolated and often subject to DV, which is one of the reasons why many decent members of the community have tried to mitigate against such a situation occurring to their own daughters and sisters by marrying them endogamously to cousins or members of their own extended family, which then creates a whole other situation in terms of congenital disorders in offspring.

Again, I have known two young women who have been murdered by their "boyfriends". In both cases, these girls were of Pakistani Muslim heritage, killed by Pakistani Muslim heritage males. It is worth noting that these girls' fate was probably influenced by the fact their fathers were elderly and they had no brothers or uncles who would seek retribution against the aggressor.

What is also interesting is the way more middle-class, integrated people from South East Asian Muslim backgrounds deal with this phenomenon. Basically, they move out of the area asap, and seek refuge in more middle-class areas of diversity. There is such a thing as "middle-class Pakistani/Bangladeshi Muslim flight". Kenan Malik did some very good work on this back in the noughties (he interviewed a family that moved nearly every two years to keep ahead of the "ghettoisation"), but, of course, no-one listened to him.

These more middle class, integrated people also protect themselves psychologically by refusing to accept there are any commonalities between themselves and this dubious section of the community they have found themselves identified with in British multicultural terms of ethnic origin and religious belief. This is why you get such strange denials over a perpetrator's ethnicity or religion, and backlash comments about Jimmy Saville.

To illustrate how it is all perceived by other immigrants from similar ethnic and religious backgrounds, I recently found myself being interrogated by a recent young Muslim migrant from Kashmir who wanted me to tell him why so many "Bradford Asians" (his words) behaved in such an appalling way. He was deeply horrified by the attitudes and behaviour he had seen, and felt extremely uncomfortable about living in the same areas. The only advice I could give him was to move, but he kept asking me "Why are they like this? Why?" He simply could not process it.

I say this to illustrate that a) it is not an "Asian", "Pakistani" or "Muslim" problem per se; instead, it is quite a specific cultural stratum where those factors intersect on top of what is, more or less, a class/caste issue inherent in the cultural heritage of these people; and b) that as these men have no qualms about treating women of their own communities in a truly horrendous fashion, it is hardly surprising their attitudes towards "the female other" are even worse.

One way to attack the problem would be to stop chain migration to arrest the "every generation is a first generation" dislocation from wider social and cultural mores in Britain. This, however, will affect community block votes, which is one reason why Labour got rid of primary purpose in the first place.

Another way would be for the state to put in place a radical programme of integration, and insist that all community and religious leaders are properly qualified to hold their positions. The establishment of an official British Islamic seminary might be a good idea. But no doubt, this would be seen in a negative light by those with vested interests in the status quo.

OlennasWimple · 12/08/2017 16:11

Abraname - that is one of the best posts I've seen on this issue for a long time, thank you. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

I got really cross when the left wing response to Louise Casey's report on integration was met with so much whataboutery. Even if there are multiple strands to this problem (which I think everyone would agree is the case), that doesn't mean that we should be afraid to call out one of the most pervasive in terms of numbers, impact and opportunity, which is undoubtedly the SE Asian Muslim community in too many parts of the UK.

CockacidalManiac · 12/08/2017 16:21

I've found this thread very interesting, and I've found plenty to think about from recent posts. Thank you.

Lloyd45 · 12/08/2017 16:37

What frightens me is laws being changed to Sharia Law and giving women less and less rights. We should all be getting together to make all women in this country are treated equally no matter what culture or religion you come from. There should be no forced marriages or honour killings, there's no honour in murder

Atenco · 12/08/2017 18:00

Lloyd, if there was Sharia Law there would be no forced marriages or honor killings as these go against Sharia Law. You have a serious problem with Islam, but these criminals are criminals who do obviously do not practice their religion, no matter what the religion may be.

Lloyd45 · 12/08/2017 18:12

Atenco you have a serious issue admitting there is a problem with Pakistan and Afghanistan men treatment of women. We know there is an issue with British and other nationalities. I don't think it's about religion I think it's about control and religion is an excuse

PricklyBall · 12/08/2017 18:14

Lloyd - what makes you think that there is any chance whatsoever that Sharia law could ever be introduced in this country? I mean, seriously. Talk about scare-mongering.

GreenTulips · 12/08/2017 18:20

Abranamechangus

You speak very well on this subject - how do you suggest the message gets put across to these people?

How do you empower Asian women to speak up and seek help?

mumoy · 12/08/2017 19:12

Sorry but many of you are missing the point and focussing on race/culture.
Just like a dog does not crap where it eats the same is true of these vermin men that carry out these vile practices. Asian men create their grooming gangs in the UK and prey on vulnerable English girls, but English men fly out to Thailand and such in droves and prey on vulnerable Asian girls.
The rape culture has been in every culture since time began, nothing has changed only we are beginning to hear/read about it more.
Not everything can be blamed on race.

Increasinglymiddleaged · 12/08/2017 19:42

I agree mumoy