To ask what has gone wrong in the UK

[Mumof56]

I'm talking about the latest sex grooming case in Newcastle. It's the seventh large scale sex gang scandal to hit the UK after cases from towns including Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford and Bristol

I have seen nothing on mumsnet about this (although maybe I've missed it). This is shocking and outrageous. How has this been allowed to happen in so many areas? What is the solution?

This is "rape culture". Where are the (peaceful) protests and the show of support for these girls?

if these perpetrators were practitioners of their religions they would not have done anything so vile

Yes, that's equally true; it also raises the issue of the risks from those who claim to be staunch supporters of a religion while having a very different agenda

Given that we've repeatedly seen the problems religious organisations seem to have in ridding themselves of such folk - even assuming they want to - perhaps that's yet another reason to keep such bodies well away from public influence

There are many things done in the name of christianity that most christians would be appalled by. Most muslims will be horrified by these men. But they should also look at their religion/culture with a critical eye to see why it is that these things can happen. It is not good enough to just say "That is not my religion". It should be "That is not my religion, but there is a pattern of behaviour here that we need to look at and understand why it is happening so that we can do our best to stop it."

" It is not good enough to just say "That is not my religion". It should be "That is not my religion, but there is a pattern of behaviour here that we need to look at and understand why it is happening so that we can do our best to stop it.""

Yeah!

The police, in the past, haven't taken abuse against girls and women seriously, victims are dismissed. That is as much to blame as the fear that they will be perceived as racist. I doubt powerful men will ever be brought to justice, whatever skin colour they have. Look at the child abuse scandal in Belgium.

"If you go into most town centres you will find groups of Asian men in cars harrassing young white girls. My own daughter has been a victim of this"

What do the police say when you report it?

There are many things done in the name of christianity that most christians would be appalled by. Most muslims will be horrified by these men

Yet more important truths right there - ones which lead me to consider the different approaches which faiths take to dissent

I absolutely accept that deeply unsavoury things have been, and continue to be done in the name of Christianity, but it's noticeable that on the whole such things can be openly and publicly discussed, however unwelcome that is to some church leaders. Should the issue be deemed serious enough, or the answers thought inadequate, it's open to a member to leave that church if they wish

Can we really say the same about all religions?

Puzzled: How do you know these things aren't discussed in Islam? And I don't agree these things are open for discussion within Western society either - you just get labelled a conspiracy theorist , troublemaker or offered PTSD counselling to make you deny the reality.

user I obviously don't pretend to speak for everyone, but those muslims who've spoken to me about this - and I've known hundreds through my work - have insisted that any community criticism of their religion is simply not tolerated, especially from women. For anyone interested it also takes very little research to confirm that the Quran is seen to be the literal word of god, beyond challenge in any way - admittedly a simplistic way of putting it, but true nevertheless

FWIW I agree that any such criticism among western societies earns you an instant label such as those we see constantly on MN. But however regrettable the name calling, we still remain free to discuss these things

At least, so far ...

If you go into most town centres you will find groups of Asian men in cars harrassing young white girls. My own daughter has been a victim of this. They think all white girls are sluts, and treat woman in general appallingly. They get away with it because of the cancer that is eating away at our society. The cancer of political correctness........

Ok so if political correctness is to blame for Asian gangs getting away with harassment, what is the reason for so many white men getting away with harassment? Because they do it at a higher rate, according to statistics.

OP the EDL do have marches and protests against Asian grooming gangs. They're seldom covered in the press - I can't say I shed tears about Theo lack of coverage though as male no mistake, the EDL don't give a shiney shite about women and victims. Otherwise they'd surely protest when it's their precious Englishman on trial, but they don't.

I don't think anyone is a racist for pointing out it's and Asian man problem. But it does piss me off that they're reluctant to admit that, first and foremost, it's a man problem. The problem is male entitlement. And no one seems to really want to do anything about it.

Why does the fact that these young men are nominally Muslim require a community criticism of Islam?

(Tangent, but many of these men are not 'young').

It is not to criticise Islam, but investigate how these abuses start and are enabled. e.g. where does the attitude that white girls are fair game come from? The question needs to be asked. The answer might just be that it is because white girls are easier targets for whatever reason, or it might be that it is inherently racist. And if it is a cultural or religious reasoning that justifies it for them then we need to know so that those attitudes aren't allowed to go unchallenged. If there is an honour code in those communities that stops people reporting concerns to the police then that needs to be challenged too.

It is just the same as trying to understand why abuses were covered up in the church. It is not an attack on Islam but child protection (as has been said on this thread many times already).

Why does the fact that these young men are nominally Muslim require a community criticism of Islam?

I wouldn't have thought it did, myself, although overthehill's just made an interesting point about where influences come from. It seemed to me that the point about criticising religion came about as a development of the thread, not necessarily because of other issues being discussed

My opinion fwiw .

It's cultural, rather than religious.

They come from a patriarchal society, often from rural areas where tribal elders 'committees' hold sway.

Where women are routinely treated like beasts of burden, are murdered by their own families for looking at the wrong boy or having a secret phone, are murdered by their in-laws for not bringing enough dowry or giving birth to girls, are raped and abused because there's no man accompanying them outside the house.

one BBC article about one incident but I was spoiled for choice, really Warning. Describes revenge rape. Triggering.

This now, is where a lot of the Pakistani 'grooming gangs' come from.

Even in India, a 'good' wife can't say her own husband's name without getting a beating

Now, imagine.

These dinosaurs from The Lands That Time Forgot land here.

Where women and girls routinely leave the house on their own. Taxi. Go on dates. Taxi. Work. Taxi. Drink. Taxi. Takeaway and a taxi home. Hang around street corners. Taxi.

Every time they get in a taxi alone, they're with an unrelated man.

As far as they're concerned, we don't care about family honour. We're irreligious. We're drunks. We keep our pay instead of handing it over to the head of our households. We're not good wives. We're disrespectful daughters. AND. WE'RE. NOT. PUNISHED. FOR. ANY. OF. THIS.

Lack of punishment tells them that our men don't care either. There's no comeback. No repercussions.

Predatory men are the same the world over.

They seek out the weakest, the most vulnerable, those who seem to have no one to support them. And groom them.

When these 'men' caught, all of a sudden they're religious men. They're good Muslims, faithfully adhering to the tenets of their faith. Bollocks.

Nope. They're misusing sections of the Koran and gathering support from the professionally offended from within the Pakistani community.

Meanwhile, all eyes are on the Pakistani community, no one is watching the majority of the British population which is where the majority of sex offenders come from.

So true Ginger, it's when the poor girl has the honour of her family on her shoulders, if she's raped she's dishonoured the family so it must be kept secret, the blame is never on the man, very convenient

I think the reasons men rape women will never truly be known to non-rapists. An educated guess would be - they think they're entitled to sex; they see women as nothing more than objects; they see them as worthless so not deserving of respect; they enjoy the power; because they know they'll get away with it most likely.

They get away with it mostly because women are too afraid to report it. One of the reasons they're afraid is because of the shame it cases onto them. That's the same the world over, no matter who has raped them. Or they don't think they'll be believed.

Whatever the reason, the epidemic is not going to stop itself. Shouting "not all men" is and "women don't it too" is beyond unhelpful, I don't know what people think they're contributing when they say this. But the apologist attitude is a huge part of the problem and needs to stop.

I'd be up for coming on a march, I'd just need to know what we're actually matching for. What would a march change, and how? Expressing anger creates good solidarity but rarely inflicts change unless backed with action.

I agree with a PP that a good start would be a secular state. I also think that consent and teaching about respect, particularly in sex education, should be taught from junior school.

It's about control more than sex, it's a punishment for not comnforming, it's having the upper hand over the victim

Oh my GOD they are doing it because they come from a culture that does not respect women!

Misogynous cultural background, Islamic upbringing, lack of integration into UK mainstream, combined with a western culture where drinking and underage sex are pretty normal and there are a lot of vulnerable girls. This is not racism and it's not rocket science!

Can we stop with the 'all men rape' shit? This is what's got us here.

All men have the potential tp abuse and rape but for the above reasons, men from these cultures are more likely to do it in this particular way.

So true hiphop I think until people actually acknowledge that fact this will keep happening, even women are excusing it 😞

"So true hiphop I think until people actually acknowledge that fact this will keep happening, even women are excusing it 😞"

So what precisely do you think needs to happen?

As a start I would suggest this 18 minute video should be compulsorily shown in secondary schools and colleges. Unfortunately very few people can be bothered to concentrate or take the 18 minutes to actually watch this, process it and share the information.

While I don't think we can lay blame entirely in this problem, I do think the way boys are treated by society in general, family, friends, schools, media etc does them no favours at all. This article is so interesting - it looks at how we teach boys not to form friendships, by not valuing their bonds, and how that leads to loneliness, with which comes all kinds of issues. Just think of how much we rely on each other for advice, straight talk, honesty, (the occasional kick up the backside) etc? The majority of men don't have that. So they get messed up. I'm not saying we should pity offenders or let them off the hook, far from it, but we need to look at how our boys are treated and do our best to work against what the rest of society is telling them so they grow up to be caring, respectful men – towards women and other men. medium.com/@remakingmanhood/why-do-we-murder-the-beautiful-friendships-of-boys-3ad722942755

We also need to look at the type of girl they go for and work out how to protect them. They are often vulnerable girls, in the care system or neglected by their families. These men got away with abusing them because the girls weren't perceived of being worth much.
Could this be thought of as a class issue as much as a race issue?

Gingernaut, you have voiced almost exactly my thoughts. Just want to add that in cultures where women are required to cover themselves from head to toe it's because men can't keep it in their trousers.
Men It seems are so weak that that cannot take responsibility for their sexual desires, impulses. Therefore women must cover up and not 'tempt' these poor weaklings who obviously have no control over their feelings. I.E. Always the females fault for whatever happens to them.

There was a thread on here yesterday about how ace men's friendships are and how crap female friendships were. Loads of people piling on to agree that women were rubbishly unsupportive and men were great.

If I walk in a certain area in Luton in a skirt (not short) and blouse I will be verbally attacked by a certain community, by male and females. Slut, slag, why am I walking round naked, nothing is done about it but if I was to insult prophet Muhammad and shouted this out in this area I would be arrested for causing racial hatred.