Incredibly sensitive thread...possible child abuse, please help.

[Anon262830]

Before I start, I would like to ask for compassion, sensitivity and understanding. This is an incredibly difficult thing to talk about, and I know some MN users can be unnecessarily harsh, this is not needed today.
I am going to give all the details despite it being a lengthy post, so that all the info is available.
My husband and I have a 5 year old. When our DS was 2, we let my DH father move in with us. He was having severe money problems, and could basically no longer afford to look after himself. We owned our own house and had the space so we said he could live with us.

At first things were fine. He and our son had a great and seemingly caring relationship.

Money issues arose due to us having another person living with us, so I decided to go back to work part time, and my FIL offered to look after our son, which we agreed to, as they seemed to get on so well.

After a while, things started to happen that set alarm bells ringing for me.

I would go into my son's room in the middle of the night just to check on him to find my FIL standing next to his bed and sometimes lying next to him in bed. My FIL would say he heard DS crying and came to help him, despite me being awake and hearing nothing.

My FIL would also turn up at bath time and offer to help, and as soon as my son was out and dressed for bed, he appeared uninterested in helping.

My son started to talk about a friend of FIL that they would visit during the day, everytime I went to work, describing in detail the house, and what they would see on the way there. My FIL denied taking him to visit this friend ever and became flustered when I asked him in more depth.

I also found DS baby gate to his room open a few times despite me or my husband not opening it in the night (FIL denied going in there).

DS started to wake up in the night screaming about his Grandad, this was really worrying.

Because of these things happening, and a generally uneasy feeling I got from FIL, I quit my job and stopped my FIL taking care of him. My husband was incredibly upset with me talking about this and said his father would never do anything like that to DS. My DH was raised by his father after his mother left at a young age.

I eventually managed to convince DH to sell our house and move. We now live 2 hours away from FIL.
My DH is adamant that his father is not a danger, whereas I feel otherwise. I have said that we can only visit his father if I am present and we do not leave our children alone with him (we now have a DD too).
It's causing major problems between us. He resents me because I am limiting contact with his father despite not having any evidence something actually happened. I resent him because I feel that his father is not to be trusted and I want to keep our children safe.
I am so conflicted. I want to keep my children safe. I also don't want to punish my FIL for something he hasn't actually done. I am struggling with this, and unsure what to do. This may end our relationship, as I feel my DH is starting to hate me.

I have had child abuse in my family (not me, but someone very close to me), and it was carried out by someone no one ever would have suspected. So it does happen.

I just want to keep my children safe. What would you do??? Please don't say I'm a bad mother, I'm just trying to do my best.

SirVix, with regards to talking to my son I worry about 'planting thoughts or memories'. If he ever brings up FIL or the friend I just gently question him, but that's about it.

Lominfid, I am so sorry that your son has been abused, that's horrific. Thinking of you too x

You have the right to speak to a Child Protection Social Worker who will, I believe, be able to access via the Police, if your FIL has offended and if he may pose a risk to your children. I would also try to find out the name of FIL's friend. Sarah's Law is in my opinion difficult to access given that police checks are easy for employers etc. Armed robbers are not protected by the same laws as pedophiles. For some reason they are very well protected in my opinion considering the damage they do.

Yes, I did think of that, what a nightmare situation for you to be in. Your alarm bells will have rung for a reason, whether that reason is strange behaviour from impending demetia, or from sexual intent, you still have to listen to the bells until you know for certain. You are doing absolutely the right thing, I don't see what else you could do, because the consequences of not listening to your instincts, and being right, are so severe and life-damaging,, whereas listening, and being wrong, means your FIL doesn't get to have as close a relationship as otherwise, but your son is safe.

ChesterVase I'll see what the NSPCC recommend when I call them.

Sir Vix the loss of FIL relationship doesn't bother me so long as DS is safe.

Sarah's Law depends on someone having actually hit the bar high enough to register.

Really I think that the signs are not good but that as you realise, in practicality you are right not to talk about leaving your husband because should anything be genuinely amiss and you are separated, you cannot stop him letting your FIL be with your son and daughter.

I think you need very skilled advice on how to elicit what might or might not have happened now, perhaps from the professionals. Solid evidence, there won't be. But it can become very clear from what a child says that there is too much happened, too soon.

Yes, of course your ds's safely is by far the biggest concern so it outweighs everything else. You can't take a risk on something so serious.

OP, from personal exp i know how insidious this kind of abuse is.
You absolutely did the right thing by following your instincts.
You have been amazingly fierce in protecting your dc and i applaud you.

How utterly terrifying for you though!
Your husband's reactions - or lack of - concern me.
He could be in denial, or he genuinely may have buried memories of his own dad doing this to him.
You have to wonder, he would rather all this upheaval and angst instead of doing one thing that would have given an honest answer - cameras.....

Are you in contact with any other members of dh's family?
Just wondering if you know much about fil's history/relationships etc?

I think you do need to speak to the agencies pp mentioned, esp about what happens if you and dh split
Stay strong.
If officials need to get involved - so be it.

Firstly, I'm really sorry that you're even having to think about this. I hope everything resolves well for you and your son is ok. Also congratulations on your DD.

Regarding the behaviour of your FIL... I'm sorry to say that your suspicions sound right on the money to me, and more importantly to my partner, who was abused (to the point of rape) by his grandfather. Everything from the bath time to the visiting a "friend" ticked his boxes.

You are NOT a terrible mother. You are in fact showing the best traits a mother can have - you are putting the safety and happiness of your children before anything else. That's amazing and you should feel great about it. My partner was left in the care of his grandparents, his parents never knew what his grandfather was doing to him, and when he finally told them they called him a liar (his father thought it was physically impossible - I'm sure you can imagine - and his mother refused to accept her father would do that, though several years and much therapy later she admitted he had also abused her and her brother).

Keeping the children away from your FIL may be the best you can do right this second, but you need your husband's support if your marriage is going to endure this. Bear in mind that this is not going to have been easy for him to hear, of course it isn't, especially if the thought has never even occured to him. It may make more sense in time. Perhaps the best conversations for you to have would be the ones about the changes in your son - the nightmares, any other behavioural changes you've observed, ones he has to think about and try to find reasons for. Perhaps you would benefit from a mediator or third party taking part in these conversations?

Also, if your son has had these experiences and they have, as you've said, given him nightmares/bad dreams, perhaps taking him to a therapist or doctor would be helpful. Even if we were to put aside the idea of him being abused, you could be concerned about the nightmares or any other changes.

Nowadays many therapists working with children use entirely unobtrusive methods to discuss their problems with them, to the point that the child does not necessarily know what they're really being asked about, so the process does not need to be traumatising.

If you're truly worried that your husband would arrange access to the children with your FIL, behind your back, then I'd recommend leaving right away. Not only is he then not taking your concerns seriously but he is also undermining you and colluding with someone he knows you don't trust, which is another issue all together and does not speak well of his regard for you.

Whatever happens I wish you and your children the very, very best and will be thinking of you.

Following your instincts seems the right thing. The denying being in his bedroom , the nightmares , and the denying visiting friend all seem rather odd (although friend = boyfriend would explain some!). The bath seems entirely harmless to me to be honest. I've had lots of conversations with friends where the dad 'does bathtime' - this job being over as soon as bub is out when mum has to come in and do the boring drying dressing stuff. My own fil would be very happy to bath my son but mil would take over after. (Dh gets that bath = the whole lot!). I still think you've done the right thing.

Seeingadistance I am so sorry for your experiences and anyone else on the thread who has had these terrible experiences.

anon you are totally doing the right thing and must stay strong.

You said you think your husband may hate you, that feels like a very strange reaction. I can imagine his being angry or upset, or feeling you are wrong etc, but hate is a very strong reaction.

The things in your opening post are very worrying. You are absolutely doing the right things.

I didn't want to read and run. You sound like an amazing mum and have 100% done the right thing. You've followed your instincts, protecting your children is far more important than not upsetting your FIL. You are not preventing your DH from having a relationship with his father at all, he doesn't need his children around in order to see his dad. I'm sorry things are hard between you and your DH, there's been some great advice from posters so hope you get it sorted.

FWIW OP, I was abused and never spoke a word of it. My mum had a hunch that something was amiss but shrugged it off as she feels it wasn't really 'evidence'. I wish deeply that she had followed her instincts and upset a few people!

for you

Also OP I would confide in a family member. I don't want to flare up your anxiety but, should something (heaven forbid!) happen to you, you don't want your DC around your FIL, and your husband seems that he still would take them alone. Telling a family member is just a little bit of 'insurance' on your part for if you're ever not around. My mum (despite now knowing about my abuse) still has a close relationship with my abuser. I told my SIL about my abuse, as she is he person who'll have our children should anything ever happen to me and DH, and I wanted her to know that they should never ever be around this particular person (my mum would allow them to be around him, she thinks it's no big deal)

Just another voice chiming in with support. You're doing everything right OP, and you having anxiety isn't a reason to not listen to your gut. Your H is being unreasonable suggesting it is, and inferring you wouldn't be believed.
A good parent wants their child protected, and will do anything to make that happen. A good grandparent would be bending over backwards to allay your fears. As H and FIL aren't doing these things, it falls to you to protect your babies, which is exactly what you're doing. Stay strong OP x

You've fine the right thing OP, don't ever doubt yourself. It is very suspicious. Just because the fil didn't abuse your dh it doesn't mean he wouldn't abuse a grandchild, the relationship is different, more removed than that of your own child.

The advice you've been given about the nspcc is good, I think you need to ask them about how you could prevent your dh visiting the fil in the event of you splitting up. I can see how this would cause a rift in your marriage but it is a concern that your dh puts his parent before his wife and child.

The fact that your ds still brings up the fil friend is significant - I have a 2 year old and their memory of who my adult friends are is pretty transient, they don't have much recall of the friends themselves, only an activity associated with the friend (eg if we went swimming regularly with that friend).

The nspcc will advise but a child psychologist who specialises in abuse will have techniques in interviewing children without creating false memories - I have limited knowledge on this but I do know that even a 2 year old can give an accurate eyewitness testimony.

I would want to know the truth, as if this did happen, better for your child to get professional help now than when they are older. I'd also want proof to ensure your dc can never be left with your fil whatever happens with your marriage. If this did happen I suspect you would be advised not to visit him at all with your dc as it is probably damaging to your son.

Wishing you strength

Thank you for all your comments. My husband is very against taking this further. I know it's hard for him to consider his dad doing something like this. He feels it would ruin his dad to get police and therapists involved when our son has never actually said anything happened to him and it's based on my say so and 'feelings'. I am wondering if there is any way to get help for my son without starting any 'allegations'. My son (and daughter of course, but she has never been left with him), are the most important people in this, but the situation is that he could actually be innocent, so how do I accuse a family member without evidence. This is so hard. I feel like if he is innocent I am the worst person ever for thinking it, and if he's guilty I'm a terrible mother for trusting him with my son. I wish I knew for sure what actually happened (if anything) but unless my son says something there's no way of knowing.

My husband has said the most he is willing to do is limit contact with his father, and has agreed that I have to be present at any visits, and his father not alone with the children. He feels like he is being generous in doing this, as he is so sure that nothing is wrong, he's doing it to appease me rather than because he's concerned.

I think you are absolutely right in insisting that you are there when your children have contact. If you are right then their safety is paramount and far outweighs any adults feelings getting hurt. This being said, I have lived with my mother with my children and she has done many of the things you describe in your post and I have absolutely no worries that she is abusing my children. She has taken them into her bed when they have cried, they have cried for her in the night when upset, she has taken them to see friends I don't particularly like (not because of anything suspicious, just not my kind of people). She also enjoys giving them baths but not helping afterwards. Baths are the fun part, wrestling them into pyjamas and bed not so much! She has also been up to check on them in the night if she has gone to the loo or whatever and not remembered in the morning, but I have heard her. I sincerely hope that it is just a continuation of parenting instincts from your FIL and nothing sinister, but applaud you for being on the ball enough to question behaviour you are uncomfortable with!

Sorry for lack of paragraphs, didn't realise that was so long!

You've handled this really well, Anon, so huge kudos for that. I found your opening post quite chilling and am a bit uneasy about your DH's response. Trust your instincts.

You've done the most important thing, which is to protect your son.

Are there any other grandchildren in the wider family who still see your FIL?

Op i feel for you all i honestly dont kbow what to make of it. Could the friend be your fil partner and he does not want anyone to know this? Its odd he lied about it. The other things on there own eg going in for a cuddle im not sure about if my dad popped in for a cuddle or wanted to help bath my son i know thats 100% innocent so would be fine with it. If my husband accused my dad of it being something else i would be horrified so i do understand why your husband feels like he does. But all of the things you mentioned together do seem odd. I think i would keep doing what you are doing, i mean i really dont know what to think perhaps a therapist to get their opinion? I also think its very difficult as if you split with your husband over this i assume he will allow more contact during his contact time. Very difficult situation all around,

Did you ever notice anything unusual in FILs browsing history online or stuff he watched?

Might also be worth getting some feelers out with other mums in your immediate family to see if they share concerns.

I have people in my family I would never leave with my child alone entire based on feelings/looks given to them or things they've said that have left me uneasy. You have done the right thing and safeguarded your child.

LakieLady and Sleepyhead, I don't know about FIL orientation. He has never had girlfriends since DH mother left. The friend has a partner but no children, I suppose it is possible they are involved and would answer the question as to why FIL would visit him secretly. There are no other grandchildren, as DH is an only child.

Hasthebellgone, my DH checked FIL computer, browsing history and emails when I asked. Nothing worrying or I would have got the police involved straight away. He is what I would call technologically challenged.

Thank you for trusting your instincts
Call the nspcc they can help answer your questions

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