Incredibly sensitive thread...possible child abuse, please help.

[Anon262830]

Before I start, I would like to ask for compassion, sensitivity and understanding. This is an incredibly difficult thing to talk about, and I know some MN users can be unnecessarily harsh, this is not needed today.
I am going to give all the details despite it being a lengthy post, so that all the info is available.
My husband and I have a 5 year old. When our DS was 2, we let my DH father move in with us. He was having severe money problems, and could basically no longer afford to look after himself. We owned our own house and had the space so we said he could live with us.

At first things were fine. He and our son had a great and seemingly caring relationship.

Money issues arose due to us having another person living with us, so I decided to go back to work part time, and my FIL offered to look after our son, which we agreed to, as they seemed to get on so well.

After a while, things started to happen that set alarm bells ringing for me.

I would go into my son's room in the middle of the night just to check on him to find my FIL standing next to his bed and sometimes lying next to him in bed. My FIL would say he heard DS crying and came to help him, despite me being awake and hearing nothing.

My FIL would also turn up at bath time and offer to help, and as soon as my son was out and dressed for bed, he appeared uninterested in helping.

My son started to talk about a friend of FIL that they would visit during the day, everytime I went to work, describing in detail the house, and what they would see on the way there. My FIL denied taking him to visit this friend ever and became flustered when I asked him in more depth.

I also found DS baby gate to his room open a few times despite me or my husband not opening it in the night (FIL denied going in there).

DS started to wake up in the night screaming about his Grandad, this was really worrying.

Because of these things happening, and a generally uneasy feeling I got from FIL, I quit my job and stopped my FIL taking care of him. My husband was incredibly upset with me talking about this and said his father would never do anything like that to DS. My DH was raised by his father after his mother left at a young age.

I eventually managed to convince DH to sell our house and move. We now live 2 hours away from FIL.
My DH is adamant that his father is not a danger, whereas I feel otherwise. I have said that we can only visit his father if I am present and we do not leave our children alone with him (we now have a DD too).
It's causing major problems between us. He resents me because I am limiting contact with his father despite not having any evidence something actually happened. I resent him because I feel that his father is not to be trusted and I want to keep our children safe.
I am so conflicted. I want to keep my children safe. I also don't want to punish my FIL for something he hasn't actually done. I am struggling with this, and unsure what to do. This may end our relationship, as I feel my DH is starting to hate me.

I have had child abuse in my family (not me, but someone very close to me), and it was carried out by someone no one ever would have suspected. So it does happen.

I just want to keep my children safe. What would you do??? Please don't say I'm a bad mother, I'm just trying to do my best.

Hi OP I have no personal/close family history of child abuse or any diagnosis of anxiety and I am in complete agreement with you that the behaviour of your FIL when caring for your DS is concerning. In your shoes I would be doing exactly the same thing.
-your son described visits to FIL's friend and the FIL denied it? Why?
-the baby gate was found open in the night, you knew you and dh had not opened it and FIL also denied opening it?
Added to the other stuff, your son woke in the night screaming about Grandad, FIL being in bed with DS sometimes and keen to help with bath times.
Definitely adding up to enough for me as a parent to end the childcare agreement and insist on supervised access only in the future, and to keep a close eye on DS's behaviour and responses to questions around his FIL. No matter who's upset including DH. Even if my suspicions were not proved right there's enough there adding up for me to do exactly what you did.
Good on you OP and wishing you all the best. Agree that it would also be good to get advice from NSPCC around further supporting your DS and also managing the situation with your DH who can't see the potential risks as you can because of his close family relationship with his father.

There's plenty reason to be suspicious, and suspicions relating to child molestation should never be ignored. You're a good mum OP, stick to your guns and don't budge an inch.

"My DH is adamant that his father is not a danger"

Your DH cannot know this for certain. There are even cases when adults don't remember the abuse they suffered as a child.

You need to stop, not limit, all contact for now. You can reintroduce supervised contact in the future perhaps, but only when you are comfortable your son is old enough to understand and verbalise abuse (this doesn't mean he will automatically share it hence why the contact must always be supervised).

You need to educate your son in an appropriate manner about boundaries and what to do if those are broken. NSPCC PANTS campaign is good at this.

The visits are concerning; the baby gate being open is not.

One thing that has struck me - how is your FILs memory? I am not saying this to minimise the risk of abuse - I can see that coming out in your posts, however, it may be something you want to consider and have checked out?

BewareOfDragons I wanted to put a camera in my son's room, my husband said I was insane to consider it. He made me feel as if I were crazy. I wish I had now.

Akani, what do you mean about his memory...that he may have forgotten taking my son to his friend?

OP Do you know the signs that children display when they have been sexually abused, do you know how it can manifest in their behaviour etc.?

I am actually wondering if a play therapist for a few sessions may be could for you and your DS. It would perhaps help alleviate any fears you have about your parenting (I can see them coming across), give you someone to talk to, but also give him access to a specialist to speak to and to be assessed?

Whoa!! there's enough real things that actually did happen in your presence on here to make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up OP never mind the weird stuff about visiting FIL's friend!
LISTEN to your instincts they are right on this I'd bet anything on it sadly . Keep DS away from him unless in YOUR eye sight at all times don't leave them alone together for a minute and don't trust your husband to do this instead of you EVER.

Anon

He may have done. It's just that he may have also forgotten entering your son's bedroom at night. And, whilst I don't know your culture and it may be more normalised in other cultures, grandparents would usually wake parents up - it's just perhaps a sign that maybe his judgement is lacking, or starting to lack perhaps rather than abuse?

(I would however not stop stopping contact until that is absolutely clarified by a health professional though).

I think this could be completely innocent. If FIL raised his own son from a young age he had to adopt a more "maternal" role than most men of his generation and it is perfectly possible that he just carried that on in his grandson, acting, for want of a less sexist term, like a rather over involved MIL.
You aren't clear if he was screaming for grandad or about grandad in his nightmares. Whilst it isn't conclusive, that your son doesn't show any signs of having been abused - no inappropriate awareness of sexual activity, for example - is a bit reassuring. So yes, given that fil successfully raised his own kids alone without apparently abusing them it is entirely possible that you are taking 2 and 2 and making 5, because of your own family history.

Having said all that, this isn't something you can risk and so I think it's appropriate that another adult be around when he is with your children. But I don't know that I would be discouraging any contact at all.

Seeingadistance for you.

OP - I totally agree that you should trust your instincts on this.

I always had a distinctly uneasy feeling about my Dad being alone with my DC but it was something I always pushed away because I felt it came from nowhere.

I've had therapy for other abuse and it's caused me to reflect on my own Dad's behaviour and discern EXACTLY why I've always felt uneasy at the idea of him being alone with my DC.

My Dad didn't abuse me but there was lots of boundary crossing, jokes where he mad me sit on his hand unwittingly, comments about bodies and willys when I was little, passing comment on my breasts when I was a teenager.

I pushed each individual incident into a corner of my mind and just told myself I felt uneasy about my DC and my Dad for no reason (though I DID follow my instinct not to let them be alone together).

It was only once I put all of the pieces together that I realised I was TOTALLY justified in hearing alarm bells around him and my DC, because he had given plenty of signals in the past he wasn't to be trusted.

Your FIL has given plenty of signals as well. Do not let him have unsupervised access to your DS again you are 100% doing the right thing.

Do what's best for your son, not your husband. When you suspect more times than not, you're right. Coming across as nice is how these men get away with it. Most abuse is a family member. You have done the right thing, never doubt that, even if you never know for sure you know you didn't risk your children. Never leave them alone with him. Stay strong.

Well done. I believe your instincts are spot on.

In a few years your children will be able to communicate clearly with you. Until then you are their protection, and you're doing a great job.

DH has said repeatedly that he wasn't abused himself. I accept that it's possible he was just acting in an inappropriate but non abusive way, but I just couldn't ignore my gut.
Akani, it happens that we were actually seeing a play therapist at the time this was happening. I had a difficult birth and struggled to bond with my son so we were referred for play therapy. I brought my worries up to her in one session (the day after finding FIL in my son's room). She wasn't worried and thought I wasn't over anxious. I took comfort in this despite still worrying something else was happening. She was never concerned about his behaviour, and he doesn't seem to show any kind of 'sexual' behaviour now either, which I suppose is reassuring in some way.

Your DH is scaring me a bit. A camera would have proved all was well and that you could relax, and DH should have been eager to show you that all was ok when it came to his dad and your DS. Worrying... tbh ...

Anon I think that (the play therapist) is really reassuring; I'm really glad that you had that experience.

Do you think that the struggling to bond with your son may be making you feel like you could / would miss signs or not pick up on signs now? One other tip you may like to try is to introduce a "family share" type time into your day where you can all share something "brilliant, brave and bothering" (as my partner's family termed it) each - that way it really opens up lines of communications between you and your children if that's still a concern.

I'm sorry you had a difficult birth.

My children will NEVER be left alone with him ever. I am very careful to centre family gatherings and visits around me always being there. I feel I have already failed DS by leaving him with a potentially dangerous person. It will never happen again.
PickMeUpLetsGo you are right about those 'niggles' which collectively add up to alot. I too tried to brush them away, but I've learned that our instincts flare up for a reason.

I do have mixed feelings about this as I have a family member (by marriage, not a blood relative) who is convinced that literally every man she meets who isn't related to her is 'a perv' or 'creepy' and 'weird' and will go out of her way to see something sinister in every interaction any man has with her kids ('m not exaggerating here).

But I do agree that your son talking about being taken to visit a man with grandad and then your FIL denying it really is a bit weird. The other stuff I can honestly see could be innocent, particularly if your FIL brought his own children up alone, but the visiting a friend thing is definitely strange if your son is adamant that it happened and your FIL says it didn't.

I'm absolutely not saying 'Your FIL is a paedophile' and I can completely see why your husband is upset, but as others have said, it might be worth calling the NSPCC just for some advice.

Regarding what others have said about asking your son 'Did grandad touch you in a private place?' I really wouldn't advise this, as that type of questioning can influence children to say all sorts of things in the hope that this will please you or end the conversation and if something did come to court it can be argued that you influenced your child into making claims that weren't true. Those sorts of questions are best left to people who are trained in questioning children without leading them in any way.

Trust your gut OP. I think you've handled it in a very dignified and appropriate way given that you have no hard evidence but enough niggles to make alarm bells sound. Supervised contact only I think

Op I would advise you to contact the nspcc.
They will listen & advise you further.
Moms instinct is never wrong. I understand why you dh is wary coz let's face it. It's ALWAYS the nice people who you are shocked to discover have done this.

And I agree with the PP, don't ask any leading questions about did grandad do this or that, young children can easily develop false memories or parrot things they've heard without knowing what they're saying. Just keep reinforcing the safety advice about private parts are private etc

I've learned that our instincts flare up for a reason

And you're absolutely right

Can I ask how your DH feels about the "visits to a friend" and your FIL's denials of them? He might claim that your comments are misguided, but that came direct from your son ... so what's his view on that?

And why on earth would he object to a camera which could have made everything so much clearer one way or the other??

So sorry! Wrong thread and have reported self

I might cause offence but I actually think that the vast majority of men are potential ( maybe latent ) paedophiles. I would go as far as to say that in my estimation roughly about 80% of men can potentially find children attractive in some way. Some men never act on this feeling because they either have no access to children or are frightened of the possible consequences of their actions ( becoming an outcast, prison sentence etc...)
I would be very reluctant to leave children alone with any male being on the long term.

You need to trust your instinct and believe your child. You are doing the right things.