To be pissed off with pregnant women smoking

[boringbetty]

I know i am being hormonal and emotional but i really don't care at this moment .
Currently suffering second miscarriage in 5 months so been to the hospital again yesterday . Obviously has to go to the antenatal ward and seeing all these women outside smoking clearly heavily pregnant.
I know it is their choice bla bla but it makes me so angry . I have done nothing wrong but have lost two . I'm not saying these women should have to go through this , nobody should but just makes me angry .
To be honest I don't know why I'm writing this . I know it's up to them what they do . Just wanted to vent really

The smoking ban began mid 2007. So the only fair start date for comparison is 2006 as the last full year without the ban.

I'm with you so far.

I actually made an error because I quoted the figure for men. The actual figure for 2006 was 22%.

OK.

And the 2016 figure was 16.1%. Which is an even bigger drop of 5.9%.

So a drop of 0.59% / year over the 10 years (compared with 1.28% / year in the four years immediately preceding the smoking ban).

Although there were rises within that period (probably because of both a 'bounce back' from the initial drop at the bans introduction and the end of the recession) there has been a sustained drop amongst the most hardcore smokers. Smoking hasn't returned to 2006 levels.

You are ignoring the big change that happened in 2012-13 when vaping went mainstream. This has affected smoking prevalence far more than the smoking ban (unless you wanted to make a case for the smoking ban actually slowing down the reduction in prevalence, for which there is more evidence than for your position).

You're also ignoring the fact that as smokers become a smaller and smaller group significant drops in the number look less significant when viewed at population level.

No this was you when you posted CRUK's figures about the 20% reduction in the number of smokers and gave the impression this contradicted the prevalence figures I gave earlier (If there were only 10 smokers in the country ...) I'm pleased you've understood it now

In other words, 5.9% of the entire population gave up after the ban. But 26.82% of smokers in total gave up after the ban. This compares to 21.4% 1996-2006, 14.3% 1986-1996 and 19% 1976-1986.

So your graph might make it look like nothing really happened post ban, but actually it encouraged the greatest ever proportion of smokers to give up.

These are really not the most useful figures though, as you explain above (as smokers become a smaller and smaller group ...) and as I explained in a previous post (If there were only 10 smokers in the country ...) and they are not the figures public health pay attention to. Public health focus on prevalence because they care about what proportion of the population are likely to die young or have poor health because of smoking. Your figures may be useful to prove a point to people who are not familar with this field but they're not useful for much else.

Can I ask why you're so invested in proving recent recent falls in smoking prevalence are due to the smoking ban in 2007, when all the evidence points to a post-2012 fall which is most likely due to vaping?

The big difference between the two is that smoking during pregnancy is likely to cause a life time of health issues for a living and sentient human being

Not so. Smoking increases the risk of a number of health conditions, but to say most children born to mothers who smoke will suffer a lifetime of health complications is completely inaccurate. Most will be born completely healthy.

Not that I'm advocating smoking in pregnancy or that it isn't a risky thing to do, but what you've said simply isn't the case.

there has been a sustained drop amongst the most hardcore smokers.

And I want to know where you got this from.

The most hardcore smokers are the ones who are left - the ones for whom shaming, stigma, restrictions and massively hiked taxes haven't work. The smokers who are poor or who have MH issues or who have been heavily addicted since childhood. They're all still there!

It's disputed where this came from but one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

We need a different approach for the smokers who are left because their lives matter, their children's lives matter and the health of everybody around them matters.

Can we not just cut the outrage and do what works best?

And I know it's been said but where would you draw the line?
Yes, agree, my part seemed to have been cut off.
The mother who has the occassional sip of wine, or eats soft cheese or raw fish?
Should we make that illegal, those are unsafe too.

YY the absolute bottom line is that women have control over their own bodies. Anybody who thinks certain things should be made illegal for PG women to do, which are not illegal for the general population, should research what is going on in some US states and in some South American countries.

No thanks.

Can we also make it illegal for obese women to get pregnant too?

To do so (to give it the same rights as a newborn) would jeopardise our abortion laws.

Quite.

To do so (to give it the same rights as a newborn) would jeopardise our abortion laws.

This. And, going from there, basically any rights to self-determination of women of child-bearing age in the worst case.

Because we know that there are certain things people can do to their bodies that will have an impact upon a pregnancy. So really, it could be argued that any woman who could potentially become pregnant during the period in which she's affected by act X should refrain from X just in case.

This is not some kind of a dystopian fantasy but has actually been tried in the US for certain scenarios.

So, much as I personally dislike smoking in pregnancy, as I'be stated upthread, it's not an option to try and do any more about it than to declare it undesirable. The potential impact much outweighs any benefits to be gained.

I have two pregnant acquaintances, one who smokes and one who drinks. Both are reasonably well educated, functioning adults who really ought to know better.
I actually only physically see the smoking one, and as she does it outdoors I'm not actually present. The drinking one is a FB friend who has spent a recent holiday posting numerous photos of her and her family, swigging pints and bottles of beer.
I would never actually say anything to them as I'm a huge coward as it's not really any of my business but I am massively judgey about it in my own head. I also judge the partners as well which probably is BVU, but heyho

Those pp's who are arguing that the fetus should have the same rights as the mother, what do you propose? That a fully functioning adult should be admitted/incarcerated and kept as nothing more than a human incubator till the fetus is born? Can you not see how damaging that would be and how many people with agendas would use this to their advantage?

There are many idiots saying it should be illegal, the mothers should be punished etc..: no one logically thinking about how it would work, where it would end, how abortion would factor in? What punishments would there be? Flogging? Forced adoption? Prison? When do the punishments kick in? Eating smoked seafood daily or having a cigarette every few months?
Would my sister be prosecuted for eating the thing that gave her listeria and caused her son to be born prematurely and kept in NICU??
A human being shouldn't have the same rights as a fetus, but if you think they should? how do you think it would work?

I sympathise with you OP, I have been through a similar thing this year as well. Having to go to the women's hospital as I'm losing a baby and seeing people smoking heavily pregnant made me so angry regardless of their rights to do as they want with their bodies.
I've experienced no support even though I've asked after my miscarriages and I think we then channel it the best way we know how.

For a long time I hated those women (I still judge them), I also hated beloved relatives who happened to be successfully pregnant, I hated being made to wait for the scan telling me my baby was finally gone sat next to excited couples at their 12 and 20 week as the waiting area was communal, I hated everyone that told me 'at least you can get pregnant' like that made it any better. I was very bitter and twisted.

I think women who have issues with pregnancy need so much more support than they get, and it should be offered, not fought for.

I would also be a fan of showing smokers/heavy drinkers/drug abusers not only what it could be doing to their baby but somehow show them how lucky they are. They may not care, but I can tell you right now just reading this thread has made me think about my lifestyle.
I don't smoke, drink or do drugs but my diet isn't the healthiest and I could be more active, I need to improve for my baby because I am damn lucky to be here again and I will never ever take it for granted.

Years ago my mother took a cigarette out of a pregnant woman's mouth, threw it on the ground and told her she should be ashamed of herself!

Smoking in pregnancy is thought to be one of the major reasons for our poor child mortality rates - look up 'why children die' report.

It is truly shocking.

And very very difficult for the women who are addicted. I don't think many (?any) women would choose to put their child at that sort of risk for fags..... they just can't stop.

I'm sorry for your loss. Life isn't fair

I'm sorry for your loss OP but I'm afraid you remind me of people I knew when I was pregnant. I have such a strong addiction I was only able to severely cut down on my smoking. I swear they were disappointed when I had a perfectly healthy child.

@Myheart

Years ago my mother took a cigarette out of a pregnant woman's mouth, threw it on the ground and told her she should be ashamed of herself

I hope you're ashamed of her behaviour. That's sickeningly arrogant of your mother.

I don't think anyone should be punished and of course a woman is free to do whatever she wants with her body

But I really sympathise with you OP

We've battled with infertility and miscarriages and are now at the end of the road with treatment and have to accept that my body can't sustain a pregnancy - and the only way we will be able to have a baby is through surrogacy

I have - and still do - feel the most boiling anger when I see a pregnant woman smoking

My anger is bound up with enormous jealousy, because I would give anything to be in their shoes, but my body can't do it. And my jealous judgey pants side feels like I would be more 'deserving' of being pregnant, because I would 'take better care' of the baby than fag ash lil would

I feel irrational jealousy towards anyone who's pregnant, I have to look away when I see someone stroking their belly.

It's irrational because them being pregnant - whether they smoke, drink, shoot up heroin, eat organic vegetables or do yoga - has absolutely no bearing on my inability to bear children.

I don't wish any other women any ill, it's just incredibly, incredibly difficult. I would never say anything to a smoking pregnant woman, it's none of my business. But I can't help how I inwardly feel

I live in nappy valley so after my miscarriages I used to treat seeing bumps and buggies like sonic the hedgehog collecting rings. For every X many I saw, I'd buy myself something nice to cheer myself up. You can add double points for the smoking ones

Good luck and OP

Firstly, sorry for what you are through.

However I think YABU. Where do you draw the line? Fat people or people on benefits can't breed?

As horrible as it must be for you & I deplore smoking, I don't think you can take away choice.

Your mother rocks myheart good for her!

YABVU. Google 'fetal rights' and 'women jailed'. There are some horrific cases in the US and there's a lot of evidence that those kind of laws just penalise vulnerable women and make many women afraid of eengaging with their doctors or seeking help if there may be a problem.

Yes, smoking in pregnancy isn't ideal. Lots of things aren't. I was seriously overweight when I got pregnant unexpectedly. Should I have had an abortion? Maybe been locked up and forced onto a crash diet?

I'm sorry for your loss, but it isn't fair to take that as a reason for promoting the 'women as fleshy incubators' line.

It's my body and I'll do what I want. I smoked while pregnant but didn't have the baby. Still my choice and no one else's business but ta :)

Choosing to have children is an inherently selfish thing to do.....you're not doing it for anyone but yourself.

Perhaps people could remind themselves of that when judging/getting angry at women who smoke during pregnancy?

The law does not consider an unborn to be an 'individual with protected rights'......therefore you cannot dictate what a woman does during her pregnancy/with her body.

What do you want Fox a medal? Tragic.

Fluffypinkpyjamas Not particularly, just it's not anyone else's business what I do with my own body. Thanks for the concern though.