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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are you a feminist?

999 replies

NoLoveofMine · 06/08/2017 02:03

Yes or no...

OP posts:
SplatController · 06/08/2017 08:34

@sashh

The imbalance only appears around child bearing age. I don't want women to have special legislation (if it would even work) leapfrogging them up payscales and through promotions after they choose have time off to have babies.

I don't know where you're getting your "ALWAYS" from, as this is a relatively recent phenomenon, as far as I'm aware.

Women are paid more and more likely to enter the workforce in a graduate job straight after Uni. They aren't paid less.

@WobbleHead

"it's completely daft to say boys are struggling in school because girls are doing well. Are the girls preventing the boys from learning? How fatuous"

I'm not sure if this was directed towards me directly. I don't think a common argument is that girls are detracting from boys in education. There are however different forms of assessment and these tend to favour one sex over another. Boys tend to do better in high-stress summative assessment with girls preferring formative assessment. As schools (and universities) have moved towards the latter, girls appear to be doing better. However, there are well reasoned arguments suggesting that people who perform better under pressure are not only better suited to higher tiers of their profession but also STEM subjects.

When grades come out, universities tend to look predominantly at grades. RG and Oxbridge may conduct interviews but most have a cursory glance at personal statements but tend to offer based on predicted attainment in particular subjects. Of course, if a course is skewed to favour the ways girls perform, they will be more likely to attend uni (as they currently are) and universities themselves are tending toward interim assessment as opposed to summative.

You see, modern feminism wants to have its cake and eat it. When girls do better it's fine and not detracting from boys. When boys edge ahead then it's systemic sexism.

I think the argument that girls outperforming boys at school but having no detrimental effect is no different to suggesting that men outperforming women in careers (and getting to the board of FTSE companies) has no detrimental effect on women. If you want to argue that the system is stacked to enable men to win in careers then the argument is equally valid for it enabling girls to 'win' at school.

BertrandRussell · 06/08/2017 08:36

Larry- so when you said "I then explain the rad fem position"..............

IDoDaChaCha · 06/08/2017 08:36

True feminism is equality for all. Angry man haters are not feminists, they're extremists Grin

stitchglitched · 06/08/2017 08:37

Yes, I would say radfem. I've also heen called a terf and a 'man hater'. I don't hate men, have a son and partner who I love very much, but I think it is important to be able to discuss the fact that it is men who cause so many of the problems in society and that women would be alot safer were it not for them. No good comes from accusing anyone who states this fact as hating men and becoming offended on behalf of the nice men that you know. Yeah NAMALT but enough of them are and that needs to be acknowledged without the attempts to silence women who raise these concerns with stupid labels.

BertrandRussell · 06/08/2017 08:37

"Can I ask is anyone thinks that there are other women 'letting the side down' so to speak?"

Yes. I do.

Skarossinkplunger · 06/08/2017 08:37

No, I'm not. Exactly because of people
like AssassinatedBeauty

MoonPower · 06/08/2017 08:37

If course I am.

larrygrylls · 06/08/2017 08:37

Bertrand,

Yes, see what I mean about one simple casually made statement being picked apart! I have hopefully now enunciated in more detail what I meant to your satisfaction.

MoonPower · 06/08/2017 08:38

So is my husband.

orlantina · 06/08/2017 08:38

There's still so many attitudes to change - and that's just in the UK.

When women and men aren't expected to do things because they are women or men, that's one major attitude to change. Work and career being the massive one. When men are just as likely to say they'll work part time / be a SAHD when children come along....that's still rare and we can all see the effect.

When men who separate are held responsible for child maintainance and women aren't left in poverty after separation - another attitude to change.

TipTopTipTopClop · 06/08/2017 08:42

"Can I ask is anyone thinks that there are other women 'letting the side down' so to speak?"

I have no time for ditzy women (to be fair they strike me as an artefact from the 80s) but often on MN we're told we've let our side down for taking our husband's surname.

Feminism isn't a very big tent these days.

BertrandRussell · 06/08/2017 08:43

"Yes, see what I mean about one simple casually made statement being picked apart! I have hopefully now enunciated in more detail what I meant to your satisfaction."

So "I then explain the rad fem position" is a casually made statement and not what you actually do. Fair enough. Not sure why you state so clearly that that is what you do, though!

Decaffstilltastesweird · 06/08/2017 08:45

Bertrand and Well:

Mainly from the extreme end and mainly to do with sex. Andrea Dworkin is a good example of someone who I frequently seem to disagree with. Though, the things I've read of hers*, which I've thought "hang on what?" about, she's gone on to say "oh I didn't mean that actually, I meant this".

I suppose when I say I disagree with feminists on plenty of issues, I should probably have said that I don't (necessarily) disagree with their views and goals, but I frequently disagree with their strategy. And that's just feminists in the public eye.

A self-proclaimed feminist friend of mine once told me, in all seriousness that I was lying about my sexual preferences because I was repressed by the patriarchy; (I said I didn't fantasise about being 'spit-roasted'. Apparently that's all lies Hmm).

*admittedly I haven't got far with it - maybe someone more knowledgeable will come on and encourage me to read on till I see the light. I'd be happy to be told this.

SplatController · 06/08/2017 08:45

@treaclesoda

Girls are flourishing - they're out-achieving boys / men).

I've always found it strange that this is met with such outrage. Boys used to outperform girls and that was accepted. But when things changed it was suddenly a crisis.

I don't want to take over and derail a thread but as you quoted me, I think it's only fair to respond.

No one I know describes it as a crisis. The difference is that as society has evolved, we look for imbalance. Race, sex, class etc. When we see an imbalance we try to address it.

Let me ask you, why do you think there are more men in STEM than women? If you think it's due to 'the patriarchy' or 'the system' or variations of this then you obviously feel males and females are fundamentally the same and we should expect roughly equal outcomes.

If you think there are differences in boys and girls and that these are biological and statistically likely in either sex then you should expect to see differences either in professional or academic attainment.

Which one is it?

I believe that in assessments like the IB or A Levels (and this is borne out by stats and personal experience), the points at the end of a year should be roughly similar as an average attainment. However, boys will occupy the top and the bottom as well as dominate certain subjects. I think that if there's a big gender imbalance then it is an issue which needs addressing. The same as I believed when I was a proud and vocal feminist.

You sound like a hypocritical feminist. Equality for all, unless it's men / boys. I've no doubt you refer to a crisis whenever females are under-represented but scathingly refer to boys achieving less than girls through school.

The difference isn't that males are expected to do better, simply that society has evolved thanks to feminists who came before us and most of us can now look to end all sorts of inequality as opposed to be bad feminists, responsible for giving the movement a bad name.

larrygrylls · 06/08/2017 08:46

Bertrand,

In that case why don't you explain more clearly what you meant in your clear statement 'women are letting the side down'?

Which women? What do you mean by 'the side'? How are they letting them down?

BertrandRussell · 06/08/2017 08:46

"No, I'm not. Exactly because of people
like AssassinatedBeauty"

So one feminist on one forum says something you disagree with so you are not a feminist?

I really don't understand this. If you were a member of a political party, for example, and another member of the same party said something you disagree with, would you immediately cancel your membership?

TipTopTipTopClop · 06/08/2017 08:47

Your response would make sense if she said she wasn't a feminist because of assassinatedbeauty.

ethelfleda · 06/08/2017 08:49

Bertrand I would say up until I started at my company I had no real experience of sexism at all - neither did any of my peers and it wasn't something we really talked about. Looking back maybe I was incredibly fortunate to never really have experienced it. I was only 23 when I started working there and so still quite naive about the world in some respects. It is now an issue I am aware of which does cause me to research and think more about it and my views are always evolving - even reading other people's experiences and views here will make me question things I have seen or experienced - I'm probably not making much sense but I'm not as sheltered now and definitely consider things more than I did ten years ago.

And can I ask - you say there are women letting the side down as well - what does this mean to You?

treaclesoda · 06/08/2017 08:51

"No, I'm not. Exactly because of people
like AssassinatedBeauty"

It's weird how this viewpoint wouldn't be acceptable in other situations. People wouldn't say (and quite rightly so) 'I'm not in favour of racial equality because..(insert unpleasant thing that someone from a non white background once said) ' and have people queuing up to agree with them. But when the issue is the way women are treated in society, it is said all the time.

treaclesoda · 06/08/2017 08:52

I worded that badly. I didn't mean that I think assassinated said something unpleasant. Blush

Nancy91 · 06/08/2017 08:54

No. Due to my lifestyle I don't qualify.

I see some feminists just picking others apart online. It makes feminism look like a cult full of bullies. Obviously not true, but some feminists are letting the side down by putting others off when they could have a constructive conversation instead.

WellErrr · 06/08/2017 08:55

So "I then explain the rad fem position" is a casually made statement and not what you actually do. Fair enough. Not sure why you state so clearly that that is what you do, though!

Grin

See, larry, I don't see it as 'picking.'
You stated that you explain something to students that you patently do not understand yourself. Something that can be easily misconstrued. I think it's more than ok - necessary even - for others to comment on things like this.

Let me ask you, why do you think there are more men in STEM than women?

Well it's not because women are just less capable, it is? Given that young girls regularly outperform boys in these subjects.

It's worth remembering that when IT was in its infancy, many computer programmers and code writers were women - this is because it was seen as unskilled service work, on a par with typing and secretarial duties.
As the importance of IT increased and wages rose, women have been pushed out.
NOT because their lady brains just can't cope.

GetAHaircutCarl · 06/08/2017 08:56

Disagreements are part and parcel of any freedom movement.

Read A Long Walk to Freedom. The discussions as to how to overthrow apartheid were ongoing and fierce. But they didn't just say 'oh that's me done'.

NauticalDisaster · 06/08/2017 08:57

Of course I am. I can't imagine being female and saying no.

I am not a choicy choice feminist though, not all decisions a female makes are necessarily a feminist choice.

I may be all right, Jack, but there is a huge amount of sexism and misogyny in our culture.

NoLoveofMine · 06/08/2017 08:59

A boy my friend met recently (whom she had found quite nice) was sending her messages when he suddenly asked her for pictures of her undressed and for her to tell him her bra size yesterday. She said "no, and stop treating girls as sex objects" and was asked "are you a fucking feminist or something? Bitch".

OP posts: