Are you a feminist?

[NoLoveofMine]

Yes or no...

Indeed SmileEachDay. It's difficult to say how we'd feel if our ideas of beauty, often so influenced by society and cultural norms, were different. If we weren't brought up to feel leg hair for example was "unfeminine" I suspect I wouldn't remove mine (given so few boys or men do), yet I do it despite feeling this. Similar with my hair - I feel the style I have makes me look "better", it certainly makes me look more what would be deemed "feminine" than if I had, say, a style more similar to my brothers, and that must be a factor in my thinking.

It's so utterly depressing.

We need feminism more than ever. This is my conclusion every time I enter one of these discussions.

@cherry no it's not. why do you have to add the little extra to make your point?

The comparison is men lying about contraception vs women lying about contraception, in an otherwise consensual sexual encounter

It seems it's defended as a woman's right to lie about contraception.

I can admit they are both despicable acts, but it seems some would choke if they had to agree that either party lying is despicable.

"It seems it's defended as a woman's right to lie about contraception. "
You really are making stuff up now.

Surely, take the man and the woman bit out. Maybe pret needs this isn't a feminism discussion for a minute.

One is lying about risk of pregnancy and telling the truth about sti risk - one lie
The other is lying about risk of pregnancy and sti risk - two lies

They are obviously different

Pret needs = pretend
🙄

Defended as a woman's right to lie about contraception

What? What planet are you on? And what discussion are you taking part in, because it certainly isn't this one.

This beggars belief. I hope you are being wilfully obtuse, because it's genuinely frightening to think there are people around with such a limited capability for thought and analysis.

Yes

Nolove

I was shaving my legs in the shower the other day, and my son came in. He asked me why I was doing it.

I had no answer that I felt ok giving him. I really didn't. There is NO reason except I have been socialised into thinking it looks...better? ....acceptable?

He's 5, and I try so very to give balance to the gendered world we live in.

I said "because it makes my legs smoother". Which was pretty lame.

@beyond "One is lying about risk of pregnancy and telling the truth about sti risk - one lie
The other is lying about risk of pregnancy and sti risk - two lies"

Oh that's ok then, because one is only a little lie

I didn't realise there was a one lie tolerance within the accepted range of lies

This is my theory as to why more people don't identify as feminists....

Whether we like it or not, we all associate with 'tribes' to which we feel we belong... Belonging tends to come first.... beliefs are secondary....(for instance, how many Muslims in the world are Muslim because they have impartially and critically examined theology and philosophy, and concluded from this examination that Islam was the best representation of truth?.... Hardly any.... rather the vast majority are Muslims because they're part of cultural group or 'tribe', and, on the basis that they can broadly reconcile themselves with at least some of the fundamental tenets of Islam, are happy to be known as Muslim.

The issue with 'feminism' isn't that most people don't tend to agree with its basic tenets, but rather that feminism has become entwined with a liberal 'tribe' whose identity tends to be defined by militancy, socialism, atheism, and republicanism. Identifying as a feminist tends to align yourself with this group... something many don't feel a part of for all manner of reasons. So they may hold feminist beliefs but don't call themselves feminists.

And one puts the other person unknowingly at risk of a) physical harm and b) pregnancy. Both of which carry the potential for immense physical/psychological consequences to that other person, without any consent from that person.

Ok Freddy I'm back to engage with you now.

You stated when a professional... explains why those exact statistics aren't accurate and then went on generalising about how all the feminists would then react.

So, you said when the statistics are proven to be wrong, essentially, didn't you? ie all those pesky statistics about male violence towards women are wrong. The point that I then extrapolated from that was that, presumably, you must feel that the actual correct statistics paint a very different picture, no? Otherwise what's your point? If the quoted statistics are that 3 women a week are killed by their male partners, but these professionals you cite are able to prove that it's closer to 2 women a week... Well, so what? That's still a horrifying statistic.

So my question about whether you thought there were other, accurate statistics that aren't horrifying was just the logical next step from your point. Because... well, what else could you be hinting at??

I suppose you think that the main point of your post was about the awful reaction from the feminists that goes on once the unspecified 'professionals' turn up to refute the statistics. But since you don't have any specfic examples to cite, I don't think this is a killer point.

You did say that some (ok, admittedly you didn't say all) statistics about male violence turn out to be wrong- you quoted your own comment above! You referred to these experts who come along and explain why the statistics aren't accurate; presumably you agree with their verdict (that the stats are wrong) otherwise what in the hell are you on about??

SmileEachDay though perhaps a good response when he's 5! In future you'll hopefully be able to discuss issues like it more with him but for the time being talking about perceptions of beauty and pressures on women and girls to conform to that may have been a bit much My only reason is likewise - thinking it looks better, therefore feeling better having done it - but the reasons for that are strongly linked to socialisation. If they weren't, it'd not be something that specifically women and girls tend to do.

If a man has sex without a condom he a) accepts that there is a risk of pregnancy, and b) accepts that there is a risk of sexually transmitted disease.

If he lies about not using a condom, he, within that consensual act, has taken away all control of the control of that act from the person he is having sex with.

It is not comparable, because the accepted risks to him are the same whether or not he uses a condom - If a woman lies about using contraception (which I do NOT condone, btw), the risks to the man are comparable to the risks he would take anyway if he's having sex without a condom.

@Holger

Condoms are not 100% effective at stopping sti's. So even with condoms there is the risk the woman will contract an sti...But I'm sure you know that

Yes, but the point is when you have sex with a condom you are taking an informed decision. You evaluate the risk and make a decision based on that. Your protection of your own body and wellbeing are within your control. If that control is taken away without your knowledge, you have not consented to the relevant risks to yourself.

I take back what I said about how people who've run out of valid points just sort of disappear... mumof56 ran out of valid points pages ago, and she's still going strong.

Of course.

@SmileEachDay

But the brain is basically chemicals and pathways for neurons to travel along. Again, socialisation vs nature (nature vs nurture) is unlikely to be answered in our lifetimes.

All my expertise comes down to black box understanding. We record the input to and output from brains but what goes on inside is unknown. We study the output (exam results) and work out how we can improve the input (teaching). We tweak the input and hope for the best.

Most teachers / educators I know (probably 1,000s) believe in differences between male and female brains and work. not to mitigate these differences, but to give tailored and individual education to each child and letting them flourish in whatever area best fits. Experience and stats show that these areas tend to be sex-driven though.

It seems a little strange that you're "raising a feminist son". How will he vote? Which rugby team will he support? Republican, socialist, conservative, anarchist? Christian, Muslim or scientist?

Isn't it better to let him make up his own mind rather than impose your own ideology?

@Moussemoose

I think the comparison with TU and feminism is an interesting one (although not without it's problems, of course).

When you lend your name to a cause, you implicitly suggest that you agree with its main principles and leadership. Of the many 'no' replies to this thread, people may agree with some of the ideas of 'feminist' but not enough to label themselves. As for leadership, I guess that in a movement without true leaders, it comes down to the most vocal. The most vocal feminists are the most radical and it seems that the majority of people agree with the idea of equality of the sexes but not the current image of feminism.

@WellErrr

I think the reason that boys outperform girls in STEM is because as the specific intellectual demands increase, male brains are better suited to STEM subjects. Spatial awareness plays a big part in many aspects of STEM (I read a very good article about this and Chemistry recently) and boys usually have more of this.

Not all men are rapists; but ALL rapists are men.

Don't be obtuse. That's because of the legal definition. I believe that something like women are responsible for 60% of foreign objects inserted into boys under 10.

@JacquesHammer

We expect quotations to be "snipped". It's what quotations are

I played amateur rugby for decades and had my clavicle, femur and tailbone smashed (different occasions) by entirely 'natural' women. I think weight classes are more appropriate! We use ages but the hits I took in 30+ games hurt a fuck load more than U21. \

@CherryDotMuncher

When men lie about contraceptives they are putting an unprotected penis into a woman, when she thinks it's protected. Does that not disgust you? Hardly the same as saying you take a pill when you don't

Are you for real? Idiot.

@Merchant

Despite coming across reasonably nicely, you've definitely got a bee in your bonnet about @mumof56

They haven't insulted you but you can't let them be(e).

Hmm I probably have got a 'bee in my bonnet' about mumof56. I think it's her views and her refusal to listen to reasoned points

I played amateur rugby for decades and had my clavicle, femur and tailbone smashed (different occasions) by entirely 'natural' women. I think weight classes are more appropriate! We use ages but the hits I took in 30+ games hurt a fuck load more than U21

I have played league and union. Including representative for county/area. Of course there are larger women in terms of muscle size. I am yet to see one who could compare to the largest of men.

Regarding the terribly patronising response to "snipping". It is good practice to inform someone you've snipped a quote when you're taking a small part. Otherwise you get accused of "picking parts of a sentence to suit you".

I'm trying to "raise a feminist son" too. Just as I am proud that I "raised a feminist daughter"
It's not a matter of ideology. Point out the facts to them and their innate sense of fairness and justice will do the rest......

Weight classes? What like in weightlifting - where the same weighted men and women lift different weights?
Yeah, that'd work.

And mum, I didn't say one lie was okay and you are perfectly aware of that. I said there is a difference between one lie and two lies.