Are you a feminist?

[NoLoveofMine]

Yes or no...

I think "unthinking" is a bad term - it's too negative. What a lot of feminists are talking about is the difference between unreflective, habitual behaviour (and a whole LOAD of our behaviour falls into this category a lot of the time, feminist or not!) and a kind of critical distance from that behaviour. The critical distance doesn't entail a particular position - I think you can be a feminist who understands the disciplinary effects of the beauty industry, but who still elects to wear lipstick, for instance. But it does mean that the behaviour is happening with a level of awareness and choice that is not there with something that is just habit. This is absolutely NOT saying that feminism is 'better' because it's always critical - It is possible, I think, to be a critical anti-feminist, and much feminism is guilty of lazy, habitual thinking at times.

Ifnot

Brilliant post!

"The FWR board is a bit off putting because people use such a lot of academic language. A lot of people (me) would feel a bit out of their depth posting there."

I do agree but 'nevertheless I persisted' and I have learned so much from the women on the FWR board. Sometimes I don't agree. Sometimes I don't even know why. The concept of the 'patriarchy' gives me the willies, mainly because, it's difficult to explain in a modern context. Plus I'm uncomfortable with adopting Marxist analysis. But that we need feminism is indisputable I believe, and that gets stronger the more I read. Far from man hating, it has made me appreciate the men around me and commit more to raising my sons to be good men. But I do know that misogyny is the reason for the sexual abuse, attacks, harassment I have received in my life, and that I will fight

Equality and fairness are not the same , that is partly why I am not a feminist. I do not what to be treated exactly the same as a man because I am not one

But this has nothing to do with feminism; I don't want to be treated exactly the same as men - I'm not one.

no boys I know do.

Until you date a cyclist, nolove my cyclist ex was more diligent about leg shaving than I ever am.

And yes, I wax my legs. I am a feminist, and I wax my legs because I think it looks "better". And the reason that I think it looks better is because I've been raised in a society that says leg hair is unfeminine, and try as I might, I can't wholly expunge that from my head. And though I've had plenty of debates about the meaning of leg hair on women, I've never, ever seen any feminist tell anyone that they can't be a feminist with smooth legs.

@well

Nice to see you back on form with the name calling.

Yes Sophocles I did think after posting there will be some, swimmers as well! I'm sure you see my point in general though. I'm the same as you which is also the case with my appearance in general - it's what would stereotypically be deemed "feminine" and I often wear clothing which is, which I also think looks better, but I'm aware of the context I'm doing all this in. I feel the same in terms of my leg hair and have also never been told that - I know more feminists both in person and from reading forums who say they do shave their legs than don't in fact.

Completely agree Sophocles

Nice to see you back on form with the name calling.

If the cap fits!

From a UK perspective then all rapists are men because that's how the law frames it. In other counties and in the states women can be rapists.

If a man doesn't stop sex when asked, he's a rapist. If a woman doesn't stop sex when asked, she too is a rapist.

Whilst shouting 'SEE? I TOLD YOU FLOWERS WERE BASTARDS TOO!'

That made me laugh.

Great analogy.

OP, do you include getting your hair cut or styled in the same feminist perspective. Why not just let your head hair grow naturally? What about your finger and toe nails, do you cut them or just let them grow indefinitely?

I'm thinking about things I do which specifically women and girls do such as remove leg hair, wear make up, certain attire which is considered "feminine" rather than things people do because it's considered hygienic or generally expected. I do consider my hair styles in that context as I along with a high number of girls my age have a hairstyle which is considered feminine and which I feel I look better with than I would without such a style.

@well

At least I've broadened your horizins by showing you something you've never seen before.

Have you stopped laughing at the hairy women on the beach link I posted for you?

I shave my legs because I get eczema on them if I don't. Although I probably would anyway because I like them smooth. I also wear make up every day. I was in a STEM career for years and now run my own business in a physical, traditionally male role. I spend a lot of my time in heavy boots and crappy clothes for work but I also like wearing a dress if I go out for dinner. My husband is useless at any kind of practical home maintenance stuff so I do most of that. He does the housework, probably not to my standards all the time. He's great. And I love him. And I know there are some great men out there. But there are plenty who are fuckwits who think women are there to serve them and that very quickly evident looking at twitter or reddit. And women are assaulted very frequently because they are women. That's why I am a feminist

And I don't understand anti-feminist women

You seem to be downplaying women saying they take the pill when they don't- does that not disgust you?

Not like secretly taking off a condom does. The two aren't even remotely comparable

Nolove

I feel I look better

That's an interesting one, isn't it? Against what standard is that measured? What idea of "better" do we measure that against?

@cherry

How are they not comparable?

Both are based in deceit with potentially life altering consequences for the other person who did not consent.

please explain why you don't think they are comparable?

It's a good question SmileEachDay. I suppose I feel myself I look better but then there's the issue of why I think this. Of course by "better" I mean relative to myself with a different style (say short hair in this instance) but why I feel that is the point and difficult to say exactly - but I think society's idea of beauty/femininity is a factor which I can't remove myself from, if that makes sense.

Yes, I do know what you mean Nolove - for example, there is a particular length for my hair that makes my cheekbones look "great".

Now, I think this, my sisters and friends will say as much.

My cheekbones standing out makes my face appear slimmer and a bit poutier.

That's a very current, westernised view of beauty.

I have no idea if I'd prefer my hair long if I lived somewhere where a rounder face was "beautiful"

How are they not comparable?

Because one involves telling a woman you will be wearing a condom then secretly removing it before putting your penis inside her body. That's it - one involves penetration, with the added risk of contracting an STD, the other doesn't. Also, men can't get pregnant from women not taking the pill. HTH

This is why we need feminism - because people think that women's bodies don't matter that much that yelling a lie about contraception is no worse than rape

Rape (i.e. With a penis) has increased risks over equivalent sexual assault, of sti transfer (in both sexes) and pregnancy (in females obv). That's why it's a distinguishable crime to an equivalent sexual assault. Serious sexual assaults (legally possible by females, but funnily enough in much smaller numbers) are afaik punished along the same guidelines as rape, they just have a different name.

Sorry, meant they think rape is no worse than telling a lie about contraception

I am quite aghast that someone could not grasp the difference between levels of deceit and betrayal of trust in regards to not using a barrier contraceptive vs not taking the pill, never mind the difference between levels of physical consequences to each of the given parties. Surely it's glaringly obvious?

I can only conclude that such individuals are being wilfully obtuse.

I agree Holger, it's dangerously close to people who think it's fine to have sex with a passed out woman because she flirted with you earlier and came back to your hotel room