Are you a feminist?

[NoLoveofMine]

Yes or no...

Freddystarshamster

So you'll bow out and everyone congratulates themselves on being masters of the universe and "winning

Yes this ^ again.

Wining the argument helps no one and nothing apart from making you feel big and clever. This should be an open discussion where people have an opportunity to play with ideas. If people 'try ideas on' they might find they like them and then buy them. If they are forced to bow to the will of the winner they will just fuck off somewhere muttering.

We need to start a 'good enough' feminist board. I'm a feminist but I still like make up. I'm a feminist but I wax my fanny. I'm a feminist and I love men.

@Freddy

I agree with your highly intelligent, thoughtful & well-read post.

I am trying (genuinely) to imagine how some posters are getting this 'off-putting' vibe from MN feminist discussions.

What I see is feminists like Bertrand and Datun presenting actual statistics about male violence, I see carefully collated information about male sex offenders who have are transitioning and want access to women's prisons, I see scientific facts about the chromosomal basis for sex laid out and examined. I see these posters asking for one, just one, actual argument for the inclusion of men in women's spaces (followed usually by silence) - and then, yes, I suppose there is sometimes exasperation, a bit of condescension, maybe some sarcasm and maybe some of the self-congratulation others have mentioned (but not usually from the posters I've named).

But I don't find this off-putting. I find it well-founded. A bit like if, I don't know, someone eventually resorted to patronising exasperation if they'd spent hours explaining how 2+2=4 to a perfectly capable adult who kept retaliating by calling them 5-phobic or bossy.

@anewalias
Brilliant post at 0846.

Very much so Merchant, not to mention how encouraging many of the posters there are to someone like myself. Some have gone out of their way and spent time discussing things with me including at length over private message, debated but also generally helped, fantastic kindness and generosity.

Oh mumof56 you're still here, then. It's just that you haven't actually responded for a while. Anyone would think you'd, umm, run out of arguments

MerchantofVenice

It's not just about trans threads. As I said wining is not enough. You don't find it off putting but lots and lots of other people do so it's self defeating. On the whole I am gender critical but I dislike with a passion the self congratulatory tone of many of the threads.

People don't like being "TOLD THEY ARE WRONG". There are more and better ways to skin that metaphorical cat.

I've been disagreed with on the feminist boards (thus you could argue "told I'm wrong" but that's debate). Sometimes I've agreed and changed my mind/ceded the point, sometimes I've still thought I'm right. Same as debating anywhere else.

Anyway this thread is about if people are feminists or not rather than a particular section of this website.

presenting actual statistics about male violence

You see carefully selected statistics. You'll also notice, when a professional from that very field explains why those exact statistics are not accurate, they'll be accused of lieing either about their role or why those statistics aren't accurate. Or even better called a handmaiden/MRA. Makes it so much fun to engage

@Merchant The patriachy haven't stopped me from sleeping.

But I'm sure the'll be knocking on my door now to tell me to put on make up Because according to pp on this thread that's not a choice I have

Freddy are you saying that there are any statistics about male violence that aren't worrying for women? Really?

"I am trying (genuinely) to imagine how some posters are getting this 'off-putting' vibe from MN feminist discussions. "

Freddie described it well earlier. I saw it way back. An AIBU about any kind of issue under the feminist interest would result in the end with the feminists from the Fem board arriving en mass and shouting down any opposing opinion. Folk would eventually bugger off and all the feminists would be left congratulating each other on how they had won and proven their point as opponents had fled. I think there was even talk that there would be a call to arms given out (possibly elsewhere) for troops to go to certain discussions (to educate and conquer).

This was a while back, possibly good few years ago. It made the fem board a bit of a no go zone back in the day.

Freddy- what more acccurate statistics do you nean? Could you link, please?

In common with OP, I have been told I'm wrong on feminist threads and I have learned stuff.

My views have changed dramatically just over the past couple of years.

Yes, the initial human response is to dig your heels in. I get that. But most people continue thinking once the thread is over. Ideas percolate into your mind over time.

For example, I felt that I was on the side of common sense when I went along with the idea that, yes, it's fine to keep telling women how to avoid rape. I didn't see the inherent victim-blaming going on. On another site (which will remain nameless) I argued with people over that. I did not back down.

But, a while later, on this site, I read careful explanations from patient posters who made me see where I'd been wrong. I did change my mind. That's what people do.

Unless they just aren't interested...

Incidentally, if you want to see people being shouted down, insulted, laughed at and generally treated like shit,try posting something "feminist" on any non specifically feminist board!

Being right isn't always enough to win the argument.

There has been research done into Brexit (this is an example not a derail) the arguments to remain were logically stronger but when anti EU people were faced with this being shouted at them they entrenched their views.

Nudge arguments work better.

I suppose it's a bit like being told by loads of posters that the patronising, self congratulatory tone puts people off but you don't want to believe it because it's not your experience so you dismis it.

bambambi but why is it that the feminists can 'shout people' down where others can't? Do they have special powers?

It's hard having your views challenged. People don't like it. But as time passes, I, for one, am able to look back on threads where I felt 'attacked' and re-think my position, once the wounds have healed, so to speak.

@Bert

The opposite has happened in this thread and it's on an non feminist board (aibu)

And it's not really like Brexit. It's no good changing your mind now if you voted leave. There's every reason to change your views on feminism.

MerchantofVenice

In relation to feminists being treated differently - please see my post about Trade Union activism. People feel able to be very, very rude to Trade Unionists.

ANewAlias

Your understanding of feminism seems to be founded on one faulty belief -

1) Men and women are the same except for our genitals. Therefore, when there's a gender imbalance (eg. STEM) it's due to the patriarchy and not because women are less adept in this field.

I don't know anyone who believes that men and women are the same. They're obviously not.
Men are generally bigger and stronger than women. Most men I know, for instance could run 100m faster than me. This is because their male body is different to my female body.
It is actually this belief that men and women are inherently different that is at the cornerstone of many feminist beliefs, and the reason that we NEED sex segregated spaces.

However, in the example you gave (STEM), biology isn't usually the issue; young girls consistently outperform boys in STEM. It's once they become teenagers that this changes. This isn't likely to be because girls IQs drop at age 13, but because of social factors.

2) Being a woman is tied into how you are brought up. You can't be 'in the wrong body' because we're all the same (bar sexual organs).

See above.

3) We're all the same but us women need special favours and protection because i. men are bad ii. we're women and we're different and need these special measures

We're not all the same.
Women need protection from men because men kill 2 women per week and rape 85000 women a year (in the uk alone).
Men as a class oppress women as a class more than any other group of people in history.

Not all men are rapists; but ALL rapists are men.
Now that's not 'man-hating.' That's fact. All facts.

So in answer to your question, your understanding of feminism is completely flawed because it is founded on one hugely incorrect idea; that feminists believe men and women are the same.

'Equal' does not mean 'the same.'

MerchantofVenice
And it's not really like Brexit. It's no good changing your mind now if you voted leave. There's every reason to change your views on feminism

My point wasn't about the rights or wrongs of the issue but the framing of the argument.

Yes.

But I'm sure the'll be knocking on my door now to tell me to put on make up Because according to pp on this thread that's not a choice I have

Would you go to the beach in a bikini without shaving one hair on your body? Underarms, legs, bikini line?

If not, why not?

Is it because you just love shaving and waxing? Love the regrowth and ingrown hairs? Delight in spending ££££ on razors and wax?

It's unlikely to be because 'the patriarchy' knocked on your door and told you to. So why is it?

Do the men in your life feel the need to do this?