Are you a feminist?

[NoLoveofMine]

Yes or no...

No one has responded to my point from a few pages back , so I'll ask again. Why is disagreement amongst feminists such a huge problem? Other movements (except, say, cults) contain a wide spectrum of ideas and that's accepted as normal human behaviour. Why on earth is it better to 'back away' from feminism than engage with it? Surely the fierce disagreements indicate that there is important stuff being discussed?? The idea that we should just shrug and go "ok, let's stick with the huge rates of rape and domestic violence because there are different schools of feminism" is, at best, lazy.

The bottom line is that feminism had been vilified and made unattractive because men don't like it.

I don't think women saying LTB is remotely comaparable to the level of abuse women receive on the internet.

It's now just common place for women to be threatened with rape, torture and death.

Liberal feminism does not mean you are absolved from critical thinking. What patronising rubbish

*Did I say it was working?

I don't really see what point you're trying to make. Liberal feminism IS a lot more fun and a lot less bother as it fully absolves you from having to think critically about any of your own choices. As a former liberal feminist, I did not find the transition easy. But once your eyes are opened, you can't go back.*

So you say that the new wave of feminists have got it wrong but are now the majority and and are the bad kind? The right kind - (radfems) are a minority and are older and especially the gender critical radfems seem to be hated by the younger extremely trans inclusive majority.

GetAHairCutCarl, my point is that it's not a contest. Sexist hatred should be challenged no matter who says it or what level of seriousness you deem it to be.

merchant I agree.

I mentioned the anti apartheid movement a few pages back. It was rife with disagreement and in fighting and back stabbing.

Funny how those men are now heroes.

ANew -I don't have time to fully respond right now, but I'll return to it.

But I wanted to answer this:

"Gender, on the other hand, with the exception of a limited few biology driven behaviour, is a social construct"

I'd say they are largely hormonal - so the tendency in males to be stronger and more aggressive (although I'd argue that this tendency is then socialised up in males) and the lack of this in females (and again, the natural tendency is enhanced by socialisation). There are also links between oestrogen and dopamine/serotonin production - but I've reached the limit of my science knowledge with that! Any experts??

nancy there is no contest between women saying LTB and men threatening to penetrate a woman's arse then kill her.

Yet, people feel the need to challenge LTB as man hating. Whilst saying little or nothing about the horrific abuse women get online.

Nancy

But it's not tit for tat, or six of one and half a dozen of the other! No one has been able to identify any specific examples of this so-called 'man-hating' on MN. But on many sites, you get men threatening women with rape and murder. It's not in any way comparable. Pointing out the injustices perpetrated by men against women is not man-hating!!!

GetAHairCutCarl, it is man hating. The same as those forums are women-hating.

The underlying hate of both parties needs to be addressed. You wouldn't say "I can say this racist comment because someone once said an even more racist comment to me". You'd both still be racists. Your mindsets would both still be wrong.

I don't like being yelled at & being called unpleasant things, Merchant. That's enough to put me off engagement.

important stuff: that's offputting. So heavy. & Implies an agenda I don't embrace.

Walking around a hot place on holiday: Maybe 5% of women in full Niqab. I muse If Abayas & head scarf are so great for dealing with high heat then why are the Muslim men folk in shorts & short-sleeves, instead?. I felt about very covered up (looking exhausted) woman walking up the hiking trail (her bouncing fellow in shorts & short sleeves, but mostly no women folk seen at all on the trails with their men). What shit that the women are burdened with upholding the family honour by having to be "modest", while the men get to be ordinary. The women get childcare duties while the boys walk the spectacular mountains. Rather similar that, to get ahead in business or politics the women have to be twice as hardworking & competent as the men.

All very feminist thoughts, you might think. I told a boy some of my thoughts. He said "Wow, that sounds great for us boys!" My only reply was a joke, something like "Yeah, & it's probably because only the women could possibly keep up those standards, no way the blokes could do it." End of conversation.

The feminists on MN don't want people like me in their club because I don't dance to your agenda.

Yes, for over 50 years. I also enjoy reading books by feminist writers.
However, I seem to fit in the category of Liberal Feminism, so I usually avoid discussion groups as I don't enjoy the squabbling and infighting that often becomes the main focus, and the personalisation of the responses. I know I'm doing feminism wrong according to many, but it is a huge movement with hundreds of differing, often conflicting ideas, factions and categories, so I do still think that there's room for me under the label.

ANewAlias- have you noticed how very often the "he ate the last Rolo" threads turn into stories of emotional abuse? Women very often post a "presenting problem" which looks very trivial, but which quickly reveals something more serious. I think of the "is he abusive in other ways?" question as a bit like the Samaritans "are you suicidal?". Many aren't- but some will be and it's right to provide an opening just in case it's necessary.

And it's actually quite unusual for "he doesn't do enough housewirk-LTB" threads to be quite that simple. They are usually "I do practically all the domestic/family/emotional work in this family and he doesn't acknowledge that-even when I point it out to him repeatedly-I'm running round like a blue arsed fly and he doesn't even know where the lunch boxes are kept"

There are indeed male dominated forums on t'internet which say much, much worse things about women....

Indeed. Lots of them, not to mention how a fair few boys and men talk about girls and women generally on social media. "Bitch" and other slurs the standard way of talking about girls, comments shared thousands of times about what makes a "shit girl" from a boy (this I saw a couple of weeks ago), rape jokes, memes, well known forums and Instagram/Twitter accounts where pictures of girls are posted along with often full names and links to their personal accounts and sexually violent language, sites dedicated to "creepshots" of women and sometimes specifically schoolgirls taken without consent, revenge porn sites, all hugely active and widely used. Yet it's feminists who are accused (entirely without foundation) of "man hating".

I don't understand why 'LTB' is man hating.

I understand why comments like 'all men do X, Y and Z' are man hating. Although ironically I see those a lot more on posts where women are excusing men's bad behaviour, (eg 'men just don't notice mess' or 'men just don't hear babies crying' etc).

But if you live with a man who makes you utterly miserable (be that through being selfish and inconsiderate, or be that through DV and/or EA) how on earth is someone saying LTB man hating? What right does a man have to make a woman's life miserable?

lljkk

I don't follow your bit about the niqab, sorry.

Also, where have you been yelled at and called unpleasant things ? On MN? I'd love some specifics.

I fail to see how people on a different forum behaving badly should impact on our behaviour on MN. It's the classic response of a naughty child "but miss he's doing it too". Nonsense.

MerchantofVenice

No one has responded to my point from a few pages back , so I'll ask again. Why is disagreement amongst feminists such a huge problem?

I am a Trade Union activist and exactly the same thing happens. People won't join the union because there are disagreements within the union. People won't join because, despite the many, many good things the union does, once a long time ago someone in the union was funny with them. People leave the union because, despite agreeing with 95% of it's aims, they were democratically defeated on one point.

People are happy to accept the many rights unions have fought for and won but they won't hold the line for future generations. They are pissing away hard won reforms.

Being a TU activist is very similar to being a feminist. People want and enjoy the benefits but won't stand and fight for the future.

The trans debate basically boils down to 'perverts in the toilets, men winning in 'women's' sports and prisons. Perverts will be perverts if they're gay, straight, white, Asian, trans etc. CCTV seems like a much better solution than assuming all men are rapists or all women are frightened when having a pee in a cubicle with a man in the next one. I think the 'sports issue' will be fine simply because professional sports depend upon sponsorship and if there's a public backlash then the sportsperson won't be able to compete. Prisons - we can continue segregating by seriousness of crime. Rapist / sexual abuser = never been in a situation where you can repeat that behaviour regardless of the sex of your victim.

Nope, for me the trans debate boils down to what are the correct definitions of "woman" and "female". To me it's biology - simply the sex you are born as. Id does make me angry that a group of men have come along and are now aggressively demanding that "woman" and "female" must now be changed to what they say/want it to be. I'm frankly furious and gobsmacked at the narcissistic arrogance of it.

It's now just common place for women to be threatened with rape, torture and death.

Very much so. I was even threatened with rape by two posters on here a month or two ago, it was so disturbing that multiple posters reported it and started a thread attempting to alert moderators as it was late at night.

Being a TU activist is very similar to being a feminist. People want and enjoy the benefits but won't stand and fight for the future

Quite, Mouse

You know this theory that feminists are 'putting people off' and that it's impossible to have a meaningful discussion with them on MN...Does anyone else have a sneaking suspicion that this is just a bit of resentment towards the fact that the highly intelligent, thoughtful, well-read feminist posters (amongst whom I do not count myself) just...umm... always win the arguments pretty conclusively, and posters like mumof56 go off in a big sulk, muttering "uh, it's no good talking to them"???

Ha ha ha. Yep beaten down by the fwr boards superior intellect. Or....more likely life gets in the way and you realise you actually have stuff to do, before realising that posters on that board are so completely set in their ways they'll never consider another opinion even with irrefutable evidence. Then the personal insults start. Utterly pointless even trying. So you'll bow out and everyone congratulates themselves on being masters of the universe and "winning"

And actually, if I was looking for man hating on this forum, I would look at the myriad threads where women collide with each other to condone and excuse crap behaviour from men, assuming that they are incapable of looking after themselves or their families (and often blaming their mothers!). I often wonder why so many women have such a low opinion of men and expect so little of them. Not man hating exactly- more man despising?

Hello SmileEachDay! I have no doubt your son is and will continue to be fantastic