Are you a feminist?

[NoLoveofMine]

Yes or no...

I do find the accusation of "man hating" bizarre. Nobody can ever quote a post that demonstrates it, but Mumsnet appears to be full of it.

Threads about feminism invariably descend into whataboutery, usually with a sprinkle of NAMALT.

It would be great if there could be less polarisation - maybe feminists saying "yes, I can see how that might be off putting/scary for" and "non" feminists saying "yes, feminism is important". But there's little of that, so there's no movement.

So I'll start.

My feminism is about stopping the oppression of women.
Yes, my fury about DV and sexual violence stats is off putting to others. I don't always articulate it calmly, because it makes me angry.

My stance on the Gender ID reforms leads to accusation of transphobia - I can see why liberal feminists would not want to engage with that.

And yes, I do sometimes probably present as thinking women who are not feminists are unthinking or taken in by socialisation. That might come across as superior, I don't know. If it does, that's probably pretty off putting.

There. Anyone else?

@Merchant

I didn't sneer and if my post sounded sneery, it's a lack of eloquence on my part.

You think the winner is the one who doesn't disappear? I disagree. It comes down to eloquence and persuasion, not tenacity and this is even more important when preaching in front of a 'home crowd'.

I remember a thread a long time ago where I had a different opinion to the vocal status quo on the thread. I tried to reason but when trying to reply to 20 opponents, some intelligent and honest, some stupid and fallacious and most somewhere in between, it's often better to disappear rather than repeat yourself and answer boring and repetitive posts.

I think you need to reconsider your criteria for winning a debate.

@SophoclesTheFox - a screen full of her posts but I think it's against the T&C to post them. Certainly a little morally dubious when she isn't here to defend herself. From the posts she makes, I don't think she'd see "bitter and man-hating" as "tired old" (oh, the irony) insults.

I see gender-critical feminists tying themselves into knots on the 'transgender' debate. It seems to me to boil down to "women are the same as everyone and we're held back because of the patriarchy - except we're different and need to be protected"

@Bertrand - unnecessary "LTB's" seem a good demonstration as well as the way in which the topic of a thread is treated differently depending on it is is a man or women in the wrong / being wronged. So much so that "LTB" has become a joke in its own right (like feminism). Although I typed that slightly tongue-in-cheek, there are remarkable parallels between the demise of feminism and the way LTB used to mean something on MN and is now used with a smiley face after 'DH ate the last Rolo'.

"Is he abusive in other ways"

"does he have any redeeming qualities"

"he is abusing you - what are you going to do about that"

etc.

All of these tend to be used unnecessarily and in quite an anit-male way. Would you agree that these replies to posts are over-used?

There has been quite a lot of research I've read about lately saying that wining an argument does not change people's minds. In fact wining an argument can make people dig into the opposing - losing - mindset even more deeply.

If we want women to identify and support wider feminist ideas then setting out to show them they are 'wrong' now and must change their mindset to the 'right' one is pretty poor way of doing it. Hence my concern about tone.

I am a 'good enough' feminist. I support control over my own body and the right to be safe at home and at work. Other women make choices I wouldn't but they absolutely have the right to do that. I will fight for their right to change their name to Mrsmyhusbandisgod if they want to. Then I will talk to them about their decision.

I see gender-critical feminists tying themselves into knots on the 'transgender' debate. It seems to me to boil down to "women are the same as everyone and we're held back because of the patriarchy - except we're different and need to be protected"

Have you actually READ any of the gender critical threads? Genuinely puzzled as you seem to have missed the point entirely.

ANewAlias

You think the winner is the one who doesn't disappear?

This ^ along with:

"X had flounced off that proves we were right"

Followed by self congratulating echoes. Very damaging to the arguments and to encouraging open discussion.

I see gender-critical feminists tying themselves into knots on the 'transgender' debate. It seems to me to boil down to "women are the same as everyone and we're held back because of the patriarchy - except we're different and need to be protected

That's an inaccurate perception- it boils down to women saying that biological differences are important and are what have lead to women being oppressed and abused, Because of this, women's spaces need protecting.

Gender, on the other hand, with the exception of a limited few biology driven behaviour, is a social construct - and therefore is not a reason to "trans". Rather, society needs to stop with the whole pink/blue, dolls/trains, skirts/trousers bollocks.

Followed by self congratulating echoes. Very damaging to the arguments and to encouraging open discussion

I've not engaged in certain debates because it can be very hard being one of few people with a slightly different opinion to the majority of the posters. And that does lead to an echo chamber. There are echo chambers all over the internet - and it just leads to isolation and a feeling that your view is the majority view. No - it's just the view of the echo chamber and being surrounded by people who share the same view.

Alias, I agree with your point about people saying LTB etc. If there was a forum full of men saying leave the bitch because she never does housework, for example, it would look awful. On here if a man isn't doing the housework he is a lazy bastard, if a woman isn't doing the housework, she is depressed. That's just one example of how things aren't equal on these forums. It does come across a bit man-hatey, though perhaps it is subconscious.

I don't choose to think of myself as a feminist. I am a woman. I perceive feminism negatively.

I believe very strongly in equal opportunities.

I believe that all should be protected against negativity due to gender, sexuality, race, religion, colour, andvto be honest any reason whether a protected characteristic or not. People should be kind to each other and any bullying is unacceptable.

I perceive feminism as having gone beyond equality and that doesn't align with my values. I don't want to get a job because I'm a woman, I want to get it because I'm the best for the role.

I know that not all feminists are anti men but I perceive that the concept of feminism has stepped beyond fighting for equality and so I can no longer associate with it.

" Modern feminism has turned into a conspiracy theory about patriarchy and a overbearing moral preaching.

*Uh, sadly liberal feminism is modern feminism. You know, the type of feminism which has convinced women the patriarchy is a conspiracy theory.

I am guessing what you have (inaccurately) described above is radical feminism. We are very much in the minority. Liberal feminism is a lot easier and a lot more fun, so go figure."

And you can't see why folk think feminism is imploding? What would make someone think any of that sounds like it's working? Why do you think folk are backjng away?

there was a forum full of men saying leave the bitch because she never does housework, for example, it would look awful

There are indeed male dominated forums on t'internet which say much, much worse things about women....

There have been a number of sexless marriage threads recently. This clearly an emotive and sensitive issue. The women who start them who want more sex are treated sympathetically. The men who start them, wanting more sex, are often initially treated as abusers. Very, very different tone.
Once the thread settles more nuances become apparent but the knee jerk response can come across as 'man hating'.

And that is awful, but why should it be a case of "if you can't beat them, join them"? That attitude will get people nowhere.

alias With respect, I think you've wilfully misinterpreted my point. It's not just that the posters disappear; it's that they manifestly run out of arguments and then slope off. My criteria for judging who has won a debate are closely related to the quality of the arguments. What I've seen timeand again in transgender debates is gender critical feminists explaining in minute detail why the oppose self-identification, and the opposition lobbing in the word 'transphobia' or, at best, 'I'm sure you're exaggerating the risks' and then buggering off when they have no argument .

Just read the threads and you'll see!

That was in response to smile btw

And you can't see why folk think feminism is imploding? What would make someone think any of that sounds like it's working? Why do you think folk are backjng away?

Did I say it was working?

I don't really see what point you're trying to make. Liberal feminism IS a lot more fun and a lot less bother as it fully absolves you from having to think critically about any of your own choices. As a former liberal feminist, I did not find the transition easy. But once your eyes are opened, you can't go back.

there was a forum full of men saying leave the bitch because she never does housework, for example, it would look awful

I see far worse comments than that on a regular basis, not even on forums dedicated to such things, but on the online comments section of 'serious' newspapers. I'm astounded that anyone could be so naive as to think that there aren't entire forums of the internet dedicated to how awful women are.

I'm not brave enough to venture on to actual 'men's' forums to see what they are saying, because I suspect that if I did, I would be so filled with fear for my daughter and what her future holds, that I would become some sort of monster mother who locks her in the house and refuses to let her live her life.

If there was a forum full of men saying leave the bitch because she never does housework, for example, it would look awful

Pop over to Reddit and see what they say about women.

And that is awful, but why should it be a case of "if you can't beat them, join them"? That attitude will get people nowhere.

That's not my implication.

@smileeachday

Okay. So, tell me where I'm going wrong with understanding the debate.

1. Men and women are the same except for our genitals. Therefore, when there's a gender imbalance (eg. STEM) it's due to the patriarchy and not because women are less adept in this field.

2. Being a woman is tied into how you are brought up. You can't be 'in the wrong body' because we're all the same (bar sexual organs).

3. We're all the same but us women need special favours and protection because i. men are bad ii. we're women and we're different and need these special measures.

I get that some believe in 1) (I don't agree but that's a different thread). I get 2) and in my life have fought to minimise the effects of socialisation whilst believing that males and females tend to be different due to biologically different brains. With regard to 3), I simply find it goes against everything I believe in. I don't want women only spaces and the great socialist@mnhq to add a trigger warning to a title in case my little head is exposed to nasty boy stuff. I want access to everything men have access to. I don't want to deny men access to female spaces.

It seems to me that feminism started losing the plot when we said that, yes we're not as strong, as fast, as vocally aggressive, as good in exams (single exam at the end of a course), as emotionally resilient BUT we're equally good in any job and if there's any form of imbalance then there's sexism.

I can't see any rebuttal to darkweb's (was that her name) post and link about meritocracy and blind recruiting hurting women in some industries.

The trans debate basically boils down to 'perverts in the toilets, men winning in 'women's' sports and prisons. Perverts will be perverts if they're gay, straight, white, Asian, trans etc. CCTV seems like a much better solution than assuming all men are rapists or all women are frightened when having a pee in a cubicle with a man in the next one. I think the 'sports issue' will be fine simply because professional sports depend upon sponsorship and if there's a public backlash then the sportsperson won't be able to compete. Prisons - we can continue segregating by seriousness of crime. Rapist / sexual abuser = never been in a situation where you can repeat that behaviour regardless of the sex of your victim.

"Gender, on the other hand, with the exception of a limited few biology driven behaviour, is a social construct"

What are these limited few behaviours? I have a feeling that these will conveniently be behaviours which have no impact on our ability to perform equally in the workplace with men.

I think the way I wrote my post made it look as if I don't think those forums exist (I'm just out of bed!). What I'm saying is that it happens both ways. We can't just let man-hating women say whatever they like, just because women-hating men do the same. It's tit for tat behaviour to just think "well men do it, so we can do it too".

I'm simply agreeing with Alias' point about LTB being an example of man hating on here. It's very common.

'Yes, posters who are wilfully ignorant will get patronised. But that's the case on any forum. Don't see why feminists should be held to sterner standards...'

I agree merchant and likewise if people are deliberately provocative they will be responded to similarly. The thing is on many of these threads posters are spoken to like the earlier 'dear' or 'you can't argue with stupid' for debating their viewpoint in a reasonable way. Feminists don't have to be nice but they could try not to be so very keen to put other women down.

There was a recent thread where a poster said calling a man micro dick was just as bad as calling a woman a slag and someone came along saying 'oh look at all the handmaidens' and being a right gf. It's that attitude that is often prominent in feminist threads

The thing is on many of these threads posters are spoken to like the earlier 'dear' or 'you can't argue with stupid' for debating their viewpoint in a reasonable way. Feminists don't have to be nice but they could try not to be so very keen to put other women down.

The poster those were directed at was being aggressive and goady. She had no interest whatsoever in a sensible discussion.