Are you a feminist?

[NoLoveofMine]

Yes or no...

mum (deep breath), other posters have already explained to you all about the societal expectations for women to change their name. You chose to ignore those points. I don't see how my explaining it all to you again will help...

It's not about laws (in this particular instance, and many others); it's about cultural norms, attitudes and prejudices.

"but wasn't the 'dear' aimed at the poster who kept on and on denying that taking your husband's name is rooted in patriarchal traditions? I mean really!? "

That wasn't what I said

page 19 right at the top
I kept my surname when I got married. That was my choice. Everyone has the same choice. To say it's some sort of patrichary is bizarre.

Denying this and sneering that the tradition of changing ones name was linked to the tradition of men having ownership of their wives, then continued for the next few pages becoming more and more disingenuous with each post.
Atleast try to remember the facts of your own derailment.

@icant

It's 2017. Women have the choice change or not. It is bizarre to say that they change it because of patriachy in 2017. IT'S A CHOICE.

@Merchant (deep breath) Society doesn't care what you call yourself.

Also, no I am not a TERF (which is a slur used to shut women up).

Do you also object to
Handmaiden?
Menz?
Apologist?

You're deluding yourself mum.

Society does care. Not in a 'this deeply matters to me on an individual level' kind of way, but in a 'oh, that's weird - he's taken her name, not the other way round, let's obsess about that and make assumptions about the dynamics of their relationship- I bet she's a real bossy bitch' type way.

This hasn't happened to you but that isn't a failsafe way of determining whether it's happened to other people.

2017 followed on from all those other years that came before it. There isn't a complete cultural re-boot on New Year's Eve, you know...

other women needed feminism because of how many woman get killed by their partners, I dont understand how feminism would stop murderers being murderers, I've been puzzling over it for most of the last couple of hours

I was one of the people who mentioned it. Oobviously nobody is going to put an end to 100% of murders, but if there are enough places in decent shelters and a good benefit system in place so that women know that their children are not to going to go through tremendous financial hardship on top of all the trauma of separating parents, there would probably be a lot fewer victims. I knew an elderly woman in Dublin who had a miserable marriage to an abusive alcoholic and was only able to leave when benefits for single parents came in.

@merchant don't even bother feeding this. Either she gets it perfectly well and is just goading OR she is completely incapable of understanding how tradition and custom can shape the way we view the world and the choices we make, in which case even the simplest of sentences, made up of one syllable words won't help.

But my money's on goading.

Ican't

Yes, I think you're right...

That wasn't what I said. But if women having the choice to change their name or not is too hard to grasp, carry on

That was not the issue.

The point is let us imagine your name was Jane Smith. You will have been called Miss Smith- possibly you might have used Ms Smith. You met and married , let us call him John Brown He will have been called Mr Brown.

Now you are married and he is still called Mr Brown but you are now Mrs Brown.

Do you ever ponder why there is a special title to tell everyone you are married? What need is there?

And if it is so terribly important to announce to everyone by the signifier "Mrs" you are married wouldn't it be as important for him?

Hope that is not too hard to grasp?

You know this theory that feminists are 'putting people off' and that it's impossible to have a meaningful discussion with them on MN...Does anyone else have a sneaking suspicion that this is just a bit of resentment towards the fact that the highly intelligent, thoughtful, well-read feminist posters (amongst whom I do not count myself) just...umm... always win the arguments pretty conclusively, and posters like mumof56 go off in a big sulk, muttering "uh, it's no good talking to them"???

Just another theory...

@lass"Now you are married and he is still called Mr Brown but you are now Mrs Brown."

Nope I'm not and neither are other women who choose not to change their name

@Merchant, that's quite the little fantasy you have going there about me.

Nope I'm sorry lass I didn't get that. can you explain it again, but even simpler?

No I'm not. One of the reasons is the domineering attitude of many feminists and I don't want to be associated with them.

@MerchantofVenice

You seem a little in awe of the "highly intelligent, thoughtful, well-read feminist posters". You says they have "categorically destroyed arguments". According to you, I assume. They have only won if they change an opposers mind. Your patronising tone throughout the thread (I've RTFT with interest) is a sad example of why feminism is dying.

With statistics showing how women (and men) are deserting feminism feminism in ever increasing numbers, when will feminists ever consider that maybe, just maybe, they're doing something wrong if they're alienating so many people; including those they purport to be fighting for. It's arrogance that's stopping them.

@ICantreachthepretzels

Sadly, that's often all a woman has to do to be considered a man hater - refuse to spend her time and energy on them.

Yes, although I'd question the use of sadly. Insert black or Asian or gay or woman into that sentence and have a think about how it sounds.

She also spends most of her time on MN telling other women they're being abused and they should LTB. She spends a huge amount of energy thinking about men (how they've wronged her, other women, society etc). I have a sneaky suspicion she was once stranded at the alter ...

I think if you if stop wanting equality for women and liberation of female oppression, simply because a few people who subscribe to the movement who you've never met disagree with you a bit, then frankly you're either:

A. A little bit thick
B. Were never that interested in the first place, or
C. Completely misunderstand the whole movement.

I think the whole "meanie feminists alienate women by not being sweet and agreeing with them on everything" is a massive cop out.

I kinda put anti feminists in the same camp as brexiteers

I have a sneaky suspicion she was once stranded at the alter

Oh well then, if she couldn't find a man, I mean, what kind of woman is she?

I live in Mexico and women automatically keep their surnames when they marry, as does my Muslim sister-in-law.

I also studied history and the condition of women has risen and fallen with time. I don't think so many people should be taking everything that feminists have won for women for granted, because it is just as easily taken away again. For example I've been away from the UK for nearly twenty years, but before I left I wouldn't have dreamed of referring to a woman as Mrs or Miss, now it seems like that is accepted again. And I would never have asked a woman with children if she worked, because everyone understood that looking after children in itself is a job. That now seems to be a fight that needs to be fought all over again.

Totally am a feminist :) I'm the radical kind - which does not mean extreme, man-hating, compulsory lesbian separatist!

Coming back to read all the posts later. Anti-feminist women are like pro-Christmas turkeys.

I don't think so many people should be taking everything that feminists have won for women for granted, because it is just as easily taken away again.

Yes, this!!! Few of the issues I campaign on will affect me personally, but I can't just stand by and watch as younger women throw away the rights & freedoms they unwisely disdain (some of which I fought for, and I know how easily they can be reversed.)

Modern feminism has turned into a conspiracy theory about patriarchy and a overbearing moral preaching.

Uh, sadly liberal feminism is modern feminism. You know, the type of feminism which has convinced women the patriarchy is a conspiracy theory.

I am guessing what you have (inaccurately) described above is radical feminism. We are very much in the minority. Liberal feminism is a lot easier and a lot more fun, so go figure.

@Atenco

A bitter, man-hating one.

Indeed. This seems grounded in sexism in itself - a woman's surname is actually her father's, so her identity is never deemed her own whereas a man's is.

I find it interesting to see how other cultures name women, in Arab countries you retain your name on marriage but when you have a son (not if - you keep going until you have a son or die) you take his name as your surname.

In Pakistan 'Begum' means 'Married woman' but in the UK you now get people who use it as a surname, both men and women, because it was their mother's surname (or grandmothers).

In Iceland, girls take their mother's name and boys take their fathers.

a bitter, man hating one

How very original. Got any decent arguments, ANewAlias, or do you only do tired old insults?

I wonder if all of the people who are turned off feminism because they don't like the tone of the debate, will now come haring back to it as a result of the snarky tone of the likes of the above?

But i have a sneaking suspicion it doesn't quite work like that...because

You say they have categoically destroyed arguments. According to you, I assume.

Well, yes, according to me. Who else's opinion am I likely to be giving here?

But, in fact, sometimes it's pretty clear who's won an argument - especially if you're a non-participant. The opposer doesn't say "oh, yes, I see you were right' - they just disappear. People don't give up their views easily, even in the face of plain fact and overwhelming evidence. As I said, I came to the feminism boards quite ignorant and without a particular axe to grind- and it was obvious to me who was talkinh sense. And they were doing it eloquently and patiently. You sneee that I seem 'in awe' of some of the posters... but I can't see anything wrong with being impressed by something impressive.

The gender critical feminists have argued their position on the transgender debate so often and so thoroughly- and yes, all the opposers have been 'put off' by that... but by 'put off' I mean I have seen them give up. Because they can't refute science.

*sneer that