to have said she's raising psychopaths.

[OohMavis]

My friend and I have fallen out.

She has zero empathy for any type of animal or living thing other than herself and her children, basically. I find that utterly baffling and quite upsetting, and I don't think I'm unreasonable in that respect, but I might have overstepped a mark a bit by saying this, and I want some opinions.

She was here yesterday with her two children so our children could play together. They were playing in the garden, we were sitting out with them, chatting. DD came running to me, excited, saying she'd found a really big beetle, asking for me to come and see. She's 3 and obsessed with mini beasts. My friend's children overheard and came to see too. They ran ahead of me and my friend followed behind, by the time we'd arrived her son had STOMPED on this beautiful stag beetle (I think) and killed it

DD was so fucking upset. Honestly, it was just such an unecessary thing to do. The kid is 7. It's inexcusable. I reacted, raised my voice a bit and said "Why did you do that?!" he just laughed and said he wanted to stand on it. I said that's a really nasty thing to do. Then bent down to see if he'd 'popped its head off'. He had, he was quite pleased with himself. His mother said nothing, I looked at her for a response and got a half-shrug.

DD was in tears by this point so I took her back to where we were sitting and friend joined me. I was comforting DD. She said, "I think they get it from me, they just don't like animals"
I replied, "well that's fine but they shouldn't kill them"
"Well it's not like it was a cat or something"
And this is where I got a bit angry and said "yes well it starts off that way doesn't it, with that attitude you're raising two psycopaths"

She was obviously offended. Sat there for twenty more minutes with a look on her face before making an excuse and leaving, awkwardly. Got a text later saying she thought I was completely out of order calling her kids psycopaths, kids step on insects and I'm overreacting. I didn't reply. She texted again telling me I'm a hypocrite since I'm not even vegetarian and she doesn't think she'll be coming again.

WIBU to mention the word psychopath. I was angry, it may have been over the top, but I still think it.

Hygge...and you will still be wrong for not accepting other people have different viewpoints. There may (at the point if my last post) have just been me and one other who felt that way, but the world is full of people, and Mumsnet is a very small forum and this is a very small thread. Someone wrote a book entitled "raising boys", because they are different, thousands of people have bought it because they recognise they are different too and want advice. You took one sentence and read an awful lot into it. Girls also squash beetles, and ants etc etc....I never said they didn't. Girls can do a lot if what boys do. Again, I never said they didn't. I wasn't talking about girls specifically, I was talking about boys. The child who killed a beetle in this thread is a boy. Yes, there are lots of adults, families etc who kill spiders in their home, they are not all phsycopaths.

There are a lot of books, called a lot of things, pedalled to people who will buy them for a lot of reasons.

But you've said it yourself, this thread is about one boy. Just one boy. Not all boys. One boy.

What people have taken exception to is that you have read about this boy, compared him to your boy, and decided that everybody else's boys are all the same.

They're not.

So I'll say it again, boys are not a hive mind or a collective behaviour. Making this one boy out to represent all boys is wrong, and for someone who keeps banging on about how the world is full of different people, you really don't seem to get that.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest boys do have different inherent impulses than girls

Can you link? I'd be interested to read up on it.

And you might want to consider that it's not so much "boys are different" but rather "boys are treated differently" that is the problem, and this attitude that they can't help it or are all like it perpetuates problems for everybody.

I am with you 100% OP. I agree your use of the word "psychopath" wasn't great but honestly, it's what I'd want to say too. Not as in the DSM classification, but in the sense that there is something lacking - empathy, remorse, etc.

I think it's one thing a 7 year old stamping on a bug - I think all children go through a stage like this and it's how they learn boundaries, but they only learn them if they're TAUGHT and she just stood, shrugged and said nothing to him. That would really worry me and I wouldn't want me kids around hers

Yes ywbu to call them psychopaths and yes you over reacted.

Someone wrote a book entitled "Raising boys"

It was Steve Buddulph and he also wrote a book entitled "Raising girls"

Mumzy err, I think you'll find that apart from weeing standing up, girls can do everything boys can. And vice versa. Not just 'a lot of' as you said.

Socialisation according to sex can start at birth. Some parents rigidly enforce gender stereotypes. None of that is innate.

On a side note stag beetles grow up to 8cm long and are an endangered species.

This little boy wasn't stamping on a wee little bug he was stamping on the largest beetle in the UK, now I don't think that stamping on such a large beetle is normal at all. It would be like stamping on a shrew or a small mouse.

Yeah OP - don't feel bad. Sometimes the truth hurts - but to remind your friend that killing insects can be the start of psychopathy won't do her any harm.

Girls can now shewee standing up too if they want to

OP, I don't think YWBU. Working in a school means I have seen similar behaviour but it's been a handful of times over many years. It's not normal and it has long been regarded as an early indicator of an escalating pattern of violent behaviour.

That said I don't think you can repair this friendship. The best you can hope for is it sets your friend thinking and re-evaluating.

This thread has absolutely reminded me once again just how damaging "boys will be boys" actually is. If we want to break the cycles of abuse, of male to female violence, of rape and sexual assault, we need to start at grass roots level and stop violent behaviour in childhood. By dismissing it as "boys will be boys" it's allowing it to continue .

Yes, 'boys will be boys' is a really dangerous philosophy! Remember that the boys who killed poor Jamie Bulger were only 10 years old. As has been said, one of them started like this, the other one copied his behaviour with horrible results.

Ok, obviously it's rare, but you only need to look into the numbers of adolescents going into young offenders' institutions to know that it's not something to take lightly.

Who knows, I might have reacted like the OP as well.

Well said, notreallyarsed.

What kind of person actually says "I just don't like animals" anyway? The whole ecosystem we all live in relies on a multitude of animals. You have to be pretty ignorant and isolated in your attitude not to realise that a scorched earth policy with regard to every single living thing is going to end in disaster.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest boys do have different inherent impulses than girls.... Can you link? I'd be interested to read up on it

Google the experiments done on monkeys (repeated several times)
The male monkeys go straight to and play with the 'boys toys' and the female monkeys go straight to and play with the 'dolls'.

I accept this doesn't uncover why there is a difference but it does show there is a difference and it isn't just a result of 'socialisation'.

So studies done on monkeys, probably a while ago and with a very small sample size and we have no idea on how the monkeys were treated from birth. Plus monkeys born into captivity are hardly a good indicator of innate behaviour. Shaky and tenuous at best.

If there is a difference between killing for food and killing for fun then does that mean if the little boy had shoved the beetle in his mouth it would have been ok?

Because millions of animals are killed everyday not because someone needs food but because adults enjoy the pleasure of eating them, even when its not needed/gluttony/greed.

I wonder how many parents would take their children to slaughter the animals that they eat and if that would affect how many animals they actually kill?

Hygge...that's not true..again you have made assumptions. I actually don't ever recall seeing my boy stamp on a beetle or talk about its head popping off, but it's something I imagine more boys doing than girls. I do actually think that's a bit vile.So please don't compare my boy to this boy. But calling him a phychopath is going a bit far. What I said was something along the lines of all kids stamp on insects, especially boys. I stand by that. I then went on to say boys (in general) are different. I stand by that too. Yes someone else write a book about raising girls, to me that shows that people see a difference. I'm not going to change my mind on that sorry. So I agree to disagree with you. I haven't said that everyone else's boys are all the same either. Again you have got carried away with that one. And I don't agree boys are different because people treat them differently either. It's not as simple as that. There are many reasons there are general differences....nature, testosterone perhaps, maybe even culture. My boy at two liked to put on his sister's ballet skirt. I didn't stop him. Boys at his nursery when dressing up often chose the dresses to wear. Nobody stopped that. But for some reason, often many reasons they follow a certain trait, whether it be nature or not I don't know. I haven't made out one boy to represent all boys. If that's what you have read into it, I'm sorry. Of course all children are different, and all boys are different. There are some boys in my son's class who completely follow the boyish rough and tumble line, constantly having play fights etc and saying "do you want to punch me" with glee, for fun. My boy is not like that, but I don't think you can completely ignore or argue against the fact that the majority of boys have a trait, or whatever, call it what you like, that very often makes them behave as a group different to girls.

Plenty of girls play with insects.

I have killed a spider today and one fly both in the kitchen. I have no moral problems with that at all and it is lawful. I have no time in my life to let them suffer and I regard them the same as the germs on my loo or my computer key board.

So studies done on monkeys, probably a while ago and with a very small sample size and we have no idea on how the monkeys were treated from birth. Plus monkeys born into captivity are hardly a good indicator of innate behaviour. Shaky and tenuous at best.

You have obviously not read or understood any of the studies. The results aren't concrete proof but they they were sound valid scientific experiments that have significant repeatable and verifiable results.

By saying boys will be boys doesn't to me mean they should get away with bad behaviour, I still think bad behaviour should be kept in check....I just think the phrase indicates to me that they are usually the ones in trouble in the first place, or perhaps more likely to do stuff like that. I can't account for other mums on here (if you listen to some their boys or children never do any wrong, I think I'm a bit more realistic.) I do think I have had to treat my son differently to my daughter. I've had to shout at him more, keep him in check more, remind him to do things more. Maybe I'd have had to do that if he was a girl too, I don't know, that's just my experience.

Fresh8008
Kids that grow up on farms see both ends of life. They dont turn into sociopaths who take pleasure in harming animals. Theres a big difference between killing for food and killing for amusement.

I've read enough dubious studies over the years thanks. There are way too many variables for these studies to have any significant relation to humans.

Stamping on a stag beets is concerning behaviour. Regardless of whether boys are more likely to do it than girls, his mum should have pulled it up for it. The boy/girl issue is a red herring in my view.

Stag beetles should not be harmed as they're a protected species, he wasn't corrected for killing it so he'll think it's ok to do it again.

His mum also didn't pull him up for his bullying OP's DD by killing a beetle that she was really excited about.

All children need to be taught how to treat other people and animals.

Boys will be boys is one of the most awful phrases going. What it means is 'I think boys are inherently noisy/dirty/rough/insert stereotypical behaviour of choice and I'm not going to bother doing anything about it because boys'. And ensure that the exact same behaviour is stamped out of their girls. Which simply means boys grow up thinking that their bad behaviour is fine, which at best gives them problems at school and at worst makes them the worst kind of entitled toxic male. And girls are expected to have to deal with the end result - because the parents couldn't be bothered to deal with it when they should have.